We are not ISO 9001 but still want to bid. We need a Quality System. - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by IWUP View Post
    Good on you for being involved that much with that size business.
    I think our motto at work lately is we add then multiply. Just to give you an idea:
    We are 300 people
    We have:
    84 SOPs
    68 forms
    57 templates
    46 policies/directives

    Commercial business
    Sounds like a perfect opportunity to do some serious Value Stream Mapping. We are just wrapping up a VSM project for our Engineering Dept. We took it from 46 steps to 23 steps on the first round. The closer you get to zero steps in the process the harder it is to find things that add no value.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4 FN 27 View Post
    Sounds like a perfect opportunity to do some serious Value Stream Mapping. We are just wrapping up a VSM project for our Engineering Dept. We took it from 46 steps to 23 steps on the first round. The closer you get to zero steps in the process the harder it is to find things that add no value.
    I agree.
    The issues that come into play is management has backed away from day to day involvement and given alot power to QA so when someone questions the rationale you're being viewed in a negative manner. There are also some personal agendas at play, some VSM's mean a job function is no longer needed. Also take into consideration the more QA people that are added they have to show they are "adding value" in some way to justify their paycheck. None of this happened overnight, it was incrementalism over 20+ years. Alot of great people are just deciding to leave the company and retire early whereas if things were reasonable they would stay on longer. They are getting tired of the corporate machine.
    I'm in the same boat, I'd prefer to stay but it's become an uninspiring place to work so I'm looking to start my own machining business and have foregone alot of retirement money to buy machines and tooling to get it going.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by laminar-flow View Post
    Just me and another two... and not many more years left. I'm looking forward to the pile of home projects and hiking.
    I would also recommend a minimalist approach. You can certainly download quality manuals of various types of the internet, showing various applications of a quality system as implemented for manufacturing. This may be helpful as a mental framework. I did this, and am currently adapting a quality manual for my company's purposes, with no real intent to "do ISO", but to create some systematic structure that works for us.

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    One more thing jumps to mind: what is your procedure if and when there IS a part out of spec? Have a defined Quarantine area for your ‘bad’ parts. Above all, do not hint that you achieve quality through inspection; show that your process is capable of producing good parts, verified by proper, routine inspection.

  5. #25
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    I just tell them, if they want me to fill out the paperwork... and comply...
    They foot the cost.
    I exceed them, effortlessly.
    I am in business to sell my wares.
    You want me to jump hoops, I will gladly do it.
    On your dime.

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  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by laminar-flow View Post
    With a shop that usually does consulting engineering and prototypes, we have never considered ISO compliance. But we recently have been requested to quote on a complex project and the documentation does not require ISO, and if not, states the following...

    "Potential suppliers having neither an ISO 9001 certified nor compliant Quality System will be required to create a
    quality document addressing the main points of ISO 9001 with respect to the work. Only potential suppliers lacking certification shall submit a copy of their Quality System along with the bid package for consideration."

    Looking for ideas and solutions.

    Thanks for helping.
    As you'll see in replies, the rift between whether ISO actually 'proves' quality.
    exhibit 1: 002 : About Standards and Specifications
    What has ISO got to do with it?

    Not much. As we've all found out, ISO certification is a kind of smoke screen designed to give the illusion of integrity. We've had ISO certified companies send us checks that bounce. So much for any kind of integrity.

    It is a membership in a fraternity of sorts and the membership dues are very steep indeed. $10,000 to $30,000 is not uncommon and then there are annual fees on top of it. Members of ISO are supposed to do business only with fellow members and that's how the organization maintains itself. It hasn't got much to do with the quality of the products but everything to do with red tape and paperwork. So much paperwork in fact that usually one or more staff member needs to be hired just to fill out the forms.


    exhibit 2: Any commercialized program is sold under the guise of being an answer, as if a purchase order proves a H4 tap was actually used. Once the first companies jumped on the ISO bandwagon [probably free], others felt the need to follow suit.

    exhibit 3: The economy being what it is, I've not always been employed as a precision machinist. A well known but local manufacturer had me fill their Inspector role. The general practice was one of assurance [after the fact] not control [in-process]. It took forever convincing them the latter was more effective, in arresting say, a bad weldment before powder coat.

    Your RFQ states non-ISO bidders can bid, meeting the listed requirements. To me, a simple set of JPEGS is what a Quality folder often lacks. There are hundreds of old and modern books on Quality that provide guidelines for any variety of manufacture imaginable. Augment one or two with the ISO hype, emphasizing how you'll adhere to everything from material receiving to isolating questionable product of THEIR project.
    And remember things someone uses everyday before they spelled out ISO, CNC or CAD for that matter. Golden Gate Bridge. Empire State Building. Hasselblad Cameras [or Nikon, Rollei, Canon, Pentax...] Douglas DC-3's, Detroit Diesels, Volkswagen Beetles, any of JM Browning's patents, American Hole Wizard drills, ATW Pacemaker lathes, Xerox copiers, Kodak film, Bell Laboratories, Pratt & Whitney engines, Taft-Pierce inspection tools, Tupperware: shall I continue?

    Many of the issues of quality stem from us allowing manufacturing to fall under the weight of tech based education and off-shore manufacture, where less engineers and skilled labor have that in their mindset, relying on youtube for expertise.

  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowshooze View Post
    I just tell them, if they want me to fill out the paperwork... and comply...
    They foot the cost.
    I exceed them, effortlessly.
    I am in business to sell my wares.
    You want me to jump hoops, I will gladly do it.
    On your dime.
    Sounds good but it won't get you the order the OP wants.

    Again, it's no big deal. All the potential customer is looking for is some kind of documentation for their files. With a small shop all that's required would be a few pages (as few as possible) on how an order is processed.

    If given thought it shouldn't take more than an hour to write and don't write it just for one customer. Keep it general for all customers. If I asked the OP "How do you do what you do?" I'm assuming he could tell me. Those words just have to go down on paper and without exaggeration.

    Info: ISO 9001 isn't about quality. It's about describing how you do what you do.
    The larger the company the more information required.

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  10. #28
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    Yes, that last comment is critical too. Don't apply procedures for one customer and not all the others. Your quality program must apply to everything that goes out the door.

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    We had a the new owner of a long time customer come to us requiring a big quality plan or ISO certification. They also wanted to do random on site inspections with no notice. And they wanted us to give them written advance notice if we moved a machine or had key personnel changes. All kinds of crap like that. And this is for a low volume low margin non-critical part that they were buying 50 a year of.

    We shut them down. No quoted them. Refused to sell them product. Told them they could buy our product through retail channels if they wanted it, but we weren't making any special accommodations for them.

    My point is be careful of what band wagon you hop on. Will some prospective work be worth the ongoing work of maintaining your quality system? Will your existing customers accept the price increase on their parts for the quality system they didn't ask for?

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  13. #30
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    You guys... probably... understand the cost's involved with certifying under ISO 9001...
    It is nothing but a hoop jumping contest with a highway into your wallet.
    Yes... there is money there....
    But... there is so much low-hanging fruit...
    Why would I be interested?
    That is just my observation.

  14. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowshooze View Post
    You guys... probably... understand the cost's involved with certifying under ISO 9001...
    It is nothing but a hoop jumping contest with a highway into your wallet.
    Yes... there is money there....
    But... there is so much low-hanging fruit...
    Why would I be interested?
    That is just my observation.
    Our yearly re-certification cost is $7812
    Our environmental compliance cert is $6900

    Previous years was $5845 for ISO recert plus $1646 for the auditors T&L
    Also take into consideration the prep costs of employees to get ready for the audit

  15. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by kb0thn View Post
    We had a the new owner of a long time customer come to us requiring a big quality plan or ISO certification. They also wanted to do random on site inspections with no notice. And they wanted us to give them written advance notice if we moved a machine or had key personnel changes. All kinds of crap like that. And this is for a low volume low margin non-critical part that they were buying 50 a year of.

    We shut them down. No quoted them. Refused to sell them product. Told them they could buy our product through retail channels if they wanted it, but we weren't making any special accommodations for them.

    My point is be careful of what band wagon you hop on. Will some prospective work be worth the ongoing work of maintaining your quality system? Will your existing customers accept the price increase on their parts for the quality system they didn't ask for?
    A while ago (over 25 years) I took over as QC manager from the previous one who had been fired. It was both amusing and "horrifying" to see how the company quality systems and procedures had changed each year depending on what seminars he had attended.

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