What are the real tax rates in the country you live in?
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    Default What are the real tax rates in the country you live in?

    I'm in the US and would like to hear, not look up, what the real felt tax rate is in other countries.

    On my other post about health care, there was mention how low our tax rate is compared to some countries in Europe.

    While our income tax rate does appear to be low, I would assume an average of 28% for most of us, it sure does not feel like it. Add to the federal income tax of let's say 28%, the State income tax, the sales tax, my WA manufacturing tax, property taxes, fuel taxes, the endless fees and taxes for services, and the amount we have to over pay for stuff because everyone else has to pay the aforementioned taxes... guess we can't include that last one.

    I would say that in the US our real tax rate is in the 40% to 50% range.

    So if you live in another country, can you tell us if you have these taxes also?

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    You forgot the big new one - Obama care.

    Its actually a health care tax cleverly hidden as insurance premiums that get larger based on income. If you are in the sweet spot for this, your effective tax rate is about 75% all in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by laminar-flow View Post
    I'm in the US and would like to hear, not look up, what the real felt tax rate is in other countries.
    I don't think other countries have a tax on felt. But seriously, I think ultimately it works out to 100%

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    Quote Originally Posted by laminar-flow View Post
    I'm in the US and would like to hear, not look up, what the real felt tax rate is in other countries.

    On my other post about health care, there was mention how low our tax rate is compared to some countries in Europe.

    While our income tax rate does appear to be low, I would assume an average of 28% for most of us, it sure does not feel like it. Add to the federal income tax of let's say 28%, the State income tax, the sales tax, my WA manufacturing tax, property taxes, fuel taxes, the endless fees and taxes for services, and the amount we have to over pay for stuff because everyone else has to pay the aforementioned taxes... guess we can't include that last one.

    I would say that in the US our real tax rate is in the 40% to 50% range.

    So if you live in another country, can you tell us if you have these taxes also?
    I'm not sure you could ever get a correct answer to that. Taking Europe in general then much of what are included in "direct" tax here (Europe) is paid for as extra by insurance etc. in the USA.

    Probably the most interesting comparison is - how much of your income is left after all "necessities" have been paid for. It's no secret I live in one of the most highly taxed countries (Denmark) in the world (at least so it appears) and yet the vast majority pay without too much complaining. This is almost certainly because we feel we know what we're getting for our tax money.

    List of countries by tax rates - Wikipedia

    What is the highest taxed country in the world?

    Highest Income Tax for Singles

    Belgium, 42.0% Belgium, like many countries has a progressive tax, which means that higher-income individuals pay more taxes than lower-income individuals do. ...
    Germany, 39.7% ...
    Denmark, 36.1% ...
    Austria, 34.9% ...
    Hungary, 34.5%


    All in Europe.

    If we took something most here could relate to then how does a machinist live on what they earn? Work hours, typical meals, house size, car, vacation, etc.

    Not an easier question than you ask but how satisfied are folk with how they live and with having as few financial worries as possible?

    I've never liked the word "happy" in "Happy country" links as "content" is probably more correct. I don't walk around with a smile on my face all the time nor does paying any kind of tax make me jump for joy but I very much enjoy my life.

    World Happiness Report - Wikipedia

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    Please show me where the ACA, Obamacare, taxes me. I'll be in the 28% or the next lower tax rate this year. I use the ACA and although it is high, going to buy an individual plan from an insurer is more. A lot more in the past. Overall, the ACA has helped me buy a plan that was more in line with what an employee would pay working for company with a group plan. At least until DT messed it up.

    I'm still waiting for this.

    Donald Trump On Obamacare On '60 Minutes': 'Everybody's Got To Be Covered' And 'The Government's Gonna Pay For It'

    Felt tax... I messed that up.

    So in Denmark, is it your income that is taxed 36.1? Do you have the other taxes that we have in the US?

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    In Canada if you gross about 100K you can figure on about 50% going to some form of tax. Majority of people pay less or nearly none though.
    Some of it depends on what you can write off and get back if you have kids benefits, etc. This is personal taxes of course, not business taxes for Inc/Ltd companies.

    I really wish we had a flat tax rate that didn't punish people who want to work harder than the rest and achieve more out of life... only a flat tax would be fair and equal for all as far as I'm concerned. I've actually put a few projects on back burner until my main income drops(pretty much if main customer disappears), its not worth the extra effort to try to earn more $ when over 50% goes to gov so might as well sit back and have a drinks at the beach.


    One thing is pretty much for sure, when you add all your taxes in the US and then your health insurance costs on top(or whatever $ your employer pays on your behalf) you're not getting anywhere near your dollars worth. It's bad and inneficient here in Canada(or everywhere..), but I've become pretty sure you got it even worse with even more bureaucracy, and a much bigger nightmare to navigate.

    Difference is maybe you have less worry when you do get sick and have to survive the healthcare system and some crazy wait times, and some stuff just makes no sense. They'll do a next day hip/knee replacement on a 90yr old ready to die, but a healthy 40yr old with a busted knee could be waiting years.

    Also, Canada apparently has the 2nd highest medications/drug costs in the world, our drug costs aren't covered, its out of pocket or partly insured if you have insurance for it usually through work, same for dental, eye and such its all extra or out of pocket, and overall they're still like 1/5th - 1/10th the cost of what you pay in the US for a lot of the same medications.

    But if you think you're getting screwed now, imagine how much you'd be getting screwed if you didn't have a well armed population...
    Last edited by SND; 08-04-2019 at 02:53 PM.

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    laminar-flow - it's actually even harder to sort out than you might think. For example, in the US, there are various "invisible taxes" you may not see - taxes hidden in some bills, or services that you are in effect required to buy (by law.) As an example, it's pretty much impossible to avoid paying for a water and sewer service in any built-up area in WA. And the capital costs of the sewer system are (apparently by law) amortized across the *fixed* part of the monthy water/sewer bill. Which means that even if you somehow consumed no city water and produced no sewage (or very little of either) you will pay a fairly high "base rate" - which is for all practical purposes a "tax" that funds that infrastructure. [This yields an odd bit of anti-conservation economics - the difference at my properties between using 0 water and as much water as possible short of a giant leak, is like $3 a month. Out of a $55 per month or so bill. Huge change in water use raises the bill order 6%....]

    Is that a "tax"? It's a socially/publicly enforced expense. (A legitimate one, I'm not arguing against it, just pointing out how much it muddies the waters....)

    Likewise, in the US, various economic and political pressures drive up concentration in cities, while political forces restrict building, in effect forcing land values (and thus property taxes) way up. People in Oregon seem to have missed the contradictions in (a) seriously restricting buliding dwellings outside of city zones and (b) making it relatively hard to build affordable dwellings inside city zones and (c) imposing rent control because dwelling cost are out of hand.

    Similar behavoirs in WA in effect drive up property values, and therefore, the tax base of the state's most important tax.

    As for the comment about inefficiency - well, the US spends as much on the DOD as the next dozen or so nations combined - order 3.5% of GDP in recent years (depending on whose numbers you believe.) I don't think that counts homeland security. Whether that's good or bad is an item of constant debate, but it is a real cost.

    Almost all large populations end up with large costs associated with hetergenous populations, problems of scale, and so on. Whlie Canada of course has a huge land area, it has only about 11% of the population of the USA. So some issues of scale are just different between the two places.

    As I've noted before, comparing someplace small (Denmark) to the whole US, is a bit weird. All of Denmark is reported as having a population order 5 million, metro Chicago area order 9 million. Denmark may be better run than Chicago, or maybe just more homogenous in the ways that matter, and therefore easier to run.

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    From a small business owner view in the UK, I hated the amount of tax i had to pay.
    Initially in business, i could pay myself in my company dividends, which was an allowed mechanism (a bit back door-ish) to take money but at a very reduced tax rate.
    This helped offset the disadvantages of the very long hours, high stress, and the FOC tax collecting (21% Value added Sales Tax) I (or wifey) did every 3 months for the government.
    Then they (gov) chipped away over the years at the dividend rate, which cost me more and more money each year.
    When i sold up, dividends weren't worth the agro. It went from 14% (by memory) and has ended up at mid 30% - i just have well been a "standard" employee and paid the 40% rate.
    Then there was corporation tax on the profits of mid 20% reducing down to 20% for the last year i had the business.

    There was also local rates for the factory (to cover council and fire service etc) but this wasn't too bad because we had a 50% discount (small business rate relief). But we still paid £3k per year.

    House rates (council tax) which was for the council service of our home, were around $200 per month.

    And don't forget how it works in the UK...
    You work and get taxed (40%), fill your car up with fuel ($6.20 per gallon?) of which 75% (?) is tax, drive to the shops and whatever you buy, you pay 21% to the gov for the privilege.
    Good game to be in...

    Regarding healthcare - it is now very much hit and miss depending upon where in the country you live.
    Yes it is free, but my parents have to wait 6 to 8 weeks to see the doctor...

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    That is interesting... wait 6 to 8 to see a doc for what?

    Here in the US, I have had to wait over a month to see a kidney specialist, a nephrologist which I considered to be an emergency. I didn't want to wait and made a fuss at the clinic to see a real Doctor, (I had been seeing "healthcare providers"), and luckily it turned out to be not kidneys.

    I have been told by friends in the UK that if you have a knee that has been bothering you for some time and want to get it looked at, you might wait a month. But if you have a real emergency, you get in right away. Triage...? Sounds fine to me. Is this true?

    Regarding all the comments on tax... maybe it is better to look at how much is left over. I would gladly pay a bit more in tax if I didn't have to pay for "medical insurance". Even if it was a draw, just to not have to deal with all of this would be worth it to me.

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    Well, fuel for the fire, not all states have state taxes, I don't in FL. We also don't pay "school" taxes (which I did in IN and also paid book fees for my kids). I lived in SC for a year and not only state taxes, but "property" taxes on vehicles so....

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    Another factor is efficiency/productivity.

    There are vast differences in productivity between individuals (say, programmers or machinists), companies, and governments. Personally, I think we pay too much attention to things like tax rates and private vs. public delivery of services (roads, prisons, schools, parcel delivery etc. etc.) and not enough in assuring they are well and honestly run.

    For example, it's easy to complain about the cost of something like health care and blame it, variously, on private enterprise or government. Harder to do the kind of work that has other nations spending about half what we do, per capita, on care.

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    It is interesting to me that the Island of Guersney where my paternal family came from is a big tax dodge for the British. I do not understand the law but they are not EU and not UK(exactly) so lots of folk move their legal residence there as a tax scheme. A internet search turns up around 75% of the hits are accounts and solicitors. I do not think they have bank secrecy laws like the ones for mobsters to hide their money.
    Bill D

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    I heard that in Oregon the third largest base of income tax is Vancouver Washington, behind Portland and Salem. So many people live over the river and commute.
    How moving to the Oregon/Washington border can save you money - Financesonline.com

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    PeteM is onto something, but there's more (lots more.)

    1. I was a programmer for a long time and you get used to the idea that the difference between the best and worst might be staggering - like 1000:1 (this among people who do it full time professionallly!) We all kind of assumed it was some curse on the field - peculiar to software. Well, if you observe machine shops, observe contractors and the people they hire, observe differences in student pilots (and you instantly know why the licensing rules are so thick), and, well, it's not peculiar to software.

    2. A terrible problem in the medical funding debate is the small fact that above a certain level, it appears to make no difference at all. Yes, the US spends a lot more for what more it gets - on a broad statistical level. But it turns out that Norway spends a lot more than Malta for no better result either. That while the UK healthcare system is "free", and on a social basis cheaper than the US system, it's still a big part of GDP and it's still apparently a topic of constant debate in the UK. What's more, France, Germany, etc. use different systems - and none of them have been such huge successes they get copied everywhere. (It's not just "why doesn't the US copy the UK" but also "why didn't Germany? Why doesn't the UK copy France?" etc.)

    3. Often the parts of government that function well never come to your attention. The police are being focused and responsive and refraining from excessive violence or corruption? You won't hear about them. The sewer system is a huge triumph in cleaning up lake Washington? You hear about once every few years on its anniversary. Your city is following a defensible plan for fixing streets and storm water runoff? It won't be a huge public issue, because with a little thought you can see it's kind of hard to do much better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by laminar-flow View Post
    So in Denmark, is it your income that is taxed 36.1? Do you have the other taxes that we have in the US?
    We most certainly do

    The good part is what the extra taxes we pay covers. The bad part is that if I start writing what they include I'll get a dirty look from Ox a a few others.

    I'll send you an email and stay out of trouble

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    Quote Originally Posted by laminar-flow View Post
    1. That is interesting... wait 6 to 8 to see a doc for what?


    2. But if you have a real emergency, you get in right away. Triage...? Sounds fine to me. Is this true?
    1. For anything. A general non emergency doctor. So if you have an ear infection, or ingrowing toenail type thing.

    2. Yes, you go to A+E (Accident and Emergency) and you get seen by someone for a quick initial assessment very fast.
    Bad news is if you've just put a cutter through your hand you maybe there for 6 to 8 hrs because you're not going to die...as it's not a *real* emergency!

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    2. Yes, you go to A+E (Accident and Emergency) and you get seen by someone for a quick initial assessment very fast.
    Bad news is if you've just put a cutter through your hand you maybe there for 6 to 8 hrs because you're not going to die...as it's not a *real* emergency!
    Sounds just like the E-R (emergency room) here, if not life threatening you wait all day, while more seriously injured people keep going in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    2. Yes, you go to A+E (Accident and Emergency) and you get seen by someone for a quick initial assessment very fast.
    Bad news is if you've just put a cutter through your hand you maybe there for 6 to 8 hrs because you're not going to die...as it's not a *real* emergency!
    Yeah but here at least, they give you good drugs while you're waiting. Voice of experience....

    Having been on the sharp end of this I'm not complaining. While I was lying there (broken elbow & hip) I heard what was going on with others being brought in.

    PDW

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    Quote Originally Posted by laminar-flow View Post
    I'm in the US and would like to hear, not look up, what the real felt tax rate is in other countries.
    Impossible quest, as the way they are applied is so different. I'll come back to that...

    Look for two other figures instead that reflect what is LEFT OVER.

    - Discretionary income

    - Purchasing power parity averages for a given gross economy.

    Now.. Hong Kong taxes income if it is a wage or derived from a rent. Only. They do not tax capital gains nor trading profit for an individual. A corporotion is another animal. Income less expenses, no matter HOW derived.

    HOWEVER.. "catch 22". There is exactly ONE plot of privately OWNED land in all of Hong Kong. St. John's Cathedral sits on it - a legacy of Anglican-British rule.

    All others pay the government "rates" for their tiny flat's share of the land under theirarse (on lease, never ownership) even so. Horribly expensive place to live, and badly so at that.

    We thirsted to OWN land? We bought it in Zhongshan, PRC. Where even a foreigner CAN "own" land..
    Weird, given the PRC is nominally communist and Hong Kong is nominally capitalist.

    Swings and roundabouts.

    Sorting what is advantageous, to whom, and at what age or nature and state of financial activity in life is a full-time job for tens of thousands of professionals, if not hundreds of thousands.

    Most of their work is published.

    Start reading of it only if you have a spare year or three of free time. DAMHIKT.

    Otherwise, you'll get a more useful answer, sooner if you but travel - then observe what people put on their table .. and on their body - feet most of all. Healthy meals, enough of them --> fit and healthy flesh, good sex, lovely children, happy smiles, decent clothes and practical shoes.

    Or not.

    Folks seldom die, nor overthrow a hooverment for lack of an iPhone or a pickup truck with brothel-cab. They are either passing satisfied with their lot. Or unhappy enough to beat-feet for some other place.

    And there is your other bellweather. Folks LEAVING a country vs folks coming in. Or trying to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    Sounds just like the E-R (emergency room) here, if not life threatening you wait all day, while more seriously injured people keep going in.
    I've been to an emergency room here 3 or 4 times. Cuts and similar and certainly nothing "life threatening". I've never had to wait more than 1½ hours and when I saw some of those that jumped the queue (line) I was happy I had got off so lightly with my "problem".

    For most things I'm in favour of "first come, first served" but there's no way that can be applied to a hospital.

    When I had an aneurism a few years ago arrived by ambulance (blue lights and sirens) at our local hospital a Sunday morning, was met by a team of doctors and nurses and told "You have at most 15 minutes to make a decision as to whether we operate or not. Otherwise you die".
    Easy decision and I'm still around From the moment I said "Operate" until I was under anesthetic (and out like a light) took at most 15 seconds.

    I'm sure if there was any line I jumped it.

    4 weeks in hospital and bedridden and then 8 weeks in rehab learning to walk again. Still get checked twice a year at hospital but no problems.

    BTW - never had to pay a penny out of pocket for those 12 weeks.


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