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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    BTW - never had to pay a penny out of pocket for those 12 weeks.
    Derelicts get the same deal, here. What's the difference?

    They don't even pay ANY taxes.
    Last edited by thermite; 08-05-2019 at 06:13 AM.

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    here in Latvia it looks something like this:
    if you want to pay a salary of 2000EUR on hand to to an employee (all taxes are payed by the company), then the cost to company is nearly 3500EUR, that means 1500EUR goes into taxes:
    23% income tax
    24% social security payed by the employer
    11% social security payed by the employee

    and lets not forget the VAT which is on all consumer products:
    21%

    gasoline is around 6.14EUR/gal, but like 98% of people drive diesels, which is a bit cheaper (if you ignore all the negatives of the pollution), just below 6EUR/gal

    medical care is free, but it is quite horrible, and you can't complain - because it is free... visit to a doctor can be arranged quickly (and is mostly free), but any serious problem - 4-6 months wait time to schedule a surgery, few weeks for MRI etc., not sure how dental works, always payed myself out of my pocket, but I don't think it covers implants and such no matter how long you wish to wait, there are additional medical insurance services (provided by private sector, not government) that may cover some aspects of medical

    if you lose your job, the unemployment benefit starts at around 60% of average income in past 2-3 months for the first month, gradually decreases to 30% for the 12th month, less if have been employed for less than 20 years total

    income tax is progressive, below 20k/year it is 20%, 20-65k/y - 23%, 65k+ 32%

    edit: to sum this up, 50k/year on hand (after all taxes) total cost to the employer is around 100k, 50k goes into taxes, and off of the 50k one receives on hand, you still pay VAT 21% on all goods/services (almost all, couple small categories have reduced VAT, but it is mostly irrelevant from consumer POV)

    edit#2: speaking of electricity, 3phase 350kWh/mo consumption will set you back 55EUR/mo (that is total - electricity and carrier charges combined)

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    Sounds just like the E-R (emergency room) here, if not life threatening you wait all day, while more seriously injured people keep going in.
    I think that is regional. When I lived up north it seemed like that too. Here it is quite opposite. Not only are you waiting 10 minutes typically, ER facilities advertise their wait times on electronic billboards.

  6. #24
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    I think the question is too simple.

    It isn't just a matter of what country you live in but also your unique personal situation. Depending on how you earn a living, your living situation and spending habits etc. different people will have different results.

    In the USA not all states have the same taxes and it's equally true of cities. Some people pay not only federal but also state AND city income taxes.

    As an example, where I live there are not only state and federal income taxes but also state sales tax and sometimes federal excise tax. At the local level there are property taxes and an annual excise tax on every registered vehicle you own. The latter varies with the age of a vehicle as after a certain number of years it hits a minimal rate that doesn't change.

    Under these rules the person who keeps a vehicle a longer time pays less than someone who trades up every few years. Each new (or used) vehicle purchase triggers a sales tax and a higher initial excise tax.

    If you own a home the property taxes are lower on a smaller more modest home. If you remodel and expand the size or make improvements the taxes go up.

    Phone service, internet and cable TV all have taxes imposed and the more expensive your plan the higher some of those taxes are.

    Most purchases are subject to sales tax so again the more you buy the more you pay in tax.

    Especially in the case of the USA I think there is no single answer as to how much you pay in taxes because the answer not only depends on WHERE you live but also HOW you live.

  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Especially in the case of the USA I think there is no single answer as to how much you pay in taxes because the answer not only depends on WHERE you live but also HOW you live.
    The range MAY be greater on the Left Coast and surely is for New York State, what with metro NYC, but... even just in no-big-big-city Virginia, the real estate and vehicle personal property taxes cover a five to one range, between highest Counties and lowest Counties.

    Further, homes of same size, age, and construction, lower-cost counties have but half or less the base valuation of the highest ones. Now and then one-quarter.

    Virginia doesn't stray far from the middle as to many and varied metrics applied to ranking of states, fourth in the USA as to Education actually one of the few outliers.

    Moving offshore, then...

    One odd but reasonable way of taxing immigrants / expats is applied by the pragmatic Swiss.

    They KNOW better than to try to ferret out your offshore income. Too much like work.

    Instead, they look at your residence, motorcars, and such. From their own statistics, they know what a native Swiss would need as income to live that way in that place.

    So that is the tax you are asked to pay.

    Sounds a good place to be for the uber-frugal expat wanting to shield offshore income and willing to live lean, keep a low profile?

    One catch. The Swiss are among the most highly paid folks on-planet. AND they ARE lean and frugal!

    TANSTAAFL!


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    We are taxed to death here in America, and most working folks are too naive to realize it.

    Here's a rundown of just some of what we workers pay:

    federal income tax

    state income tax

    Social Security tax (with our employer having to match)

    Medicare tax (same matching by employer)

    AND ALL THE FOLLOWING ARE PAID WITH MONEY THAT HAS ALREADY HAD THE ABOVE TAXES TAKEN OUT:

    property taxes (every year, and are on house, land, cars, equipment...)

    state sales tax (food, clothing, cars, restaurant meals, literally everything we buy!)

    utility taxes (water, sewer, phone, internet, electricity, natural gas...)

    annual DMV taxes

    gasoline tax

    road tolls

    airline ticket and airport taxes

    business profit tax (if you own one, and are lucky enough to make a profit)


    I can go on, but you get the idea.

    So for the working class in America, we are LUCKY to net 50% of what we earn.

    Now the lazy class in America have it a little better, with all their free government handout shit, but they too have to pay all the taxes on the list above, below those that workers pay obviously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    We are taxed to death here in America, and most working folks are too naive to realize it.
    You forgot a big expense your taxes pay for.

    List of countries by military expenditures - Wikipedia

    Focus on this below and not the above.
    An income is necessary for all regardless of how they live. A country needs an income to run things. On what would you like not to pay tax on and what would you like to see a tax increase on instead?

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    Gordon,

    "Entitlement spending" is by far the largest category in the US Federal budget...eclipsing defense spending by three or four times. This includes Social Security and Medicare, but every year more and more are taking out that have paid little, if any, into the system.

    America is going broke, down the shithole, trying to ensure everybody has equal outcome --- regardless of effort put in.

    And a certain political party is wanting to go further down the re-distribution shithole. All because they know they're close to a tipping point of getting enough people dependent on the government to ensure victory in all future elections.

    After all, those that only "take" have plenty of time on their hands to show up and vote...

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    Gordon,

    "Entitlement spending" is by far the largest category in the US Federal budget...eclipsing defense spending by three or four times. This includes Social Security and Medicare, but every year more and more are taking out that have paid little, if any, into the system.

    America is going broke, down the shithole, trying to ensure everybody has equal outcome --- regardless of effort put in.

    And a certain political party is wanting to go further down the re-distribution shithole. All because they know they're close to a tipping point of getting enough people dependent on the government to ensure victory in all future elections.

    After all, those that only "take" have plenty of time on their hands to show up and vote...
    Your views on those you regard as "takers" is different from mine. I don't envy them their lives and I'm sure most of them don't want the life they have.

    Are you sure you are covered in the event of a very bad run of luck? Serious illness, house destroyed in a storm, company go bankrot?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    Gordon,

    "Entitlement spending" is by far the largest category in the US Federal budget...eclipsing defense spending by three or four times. This includes Social Security and Medicare, but every year more and more are taking out that have paid little, if any, into the system.
    Both Social Security and Medicare (in its many forms) are used primarily by people who paid into them. Also, primarily by people in the 62+ age bracket.

    The US military is mostly a jobs program: $300B+ goes to salaries and benefits. Most of the rest of the budget ultimately supports jobs throughout the defense industry. Realistically it's not a major issue for long term debt/budgeting like entitlements are.

    America is going broke, down the shithole, trying to ensure everybody has equal outcome --- regardless of effort put in.

    And a certain political party is wanting to go further down the re-distribution shithole. All because they know they're close to a tipping point of getting enough people dependent on the government to ensure victory in all future elections.
    Who lost the popular vote and won the election last time around? If they're rigging the system, it appears they're really bad at it.

    Speaking of redistribution and effort put in, maybe you could get the federal government to go back to letting me write off all of my income and property taxes? Nothing like showing we're all in this equally like taxing the people who already pay more than their share of the federal budget a second time.

    After all, those that only "take" have plenty of time on their hands to show up and vote...
    Just about the only things the correlate with showing up to vote are age and wealth. As either goes up, so do voting rates.

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    Trillions. Yes. But it is not like those Trillions will be added to what we already pay.

    What I would think would be less expensive, is to have a tax increase and no person would have to pay for premiums or medical service. And companies would no longer have to subsidize insurance to their employees so everyone would get a pay increase. How would it cost less...

    This would help businesses as they would not have to offer expensive plans to attract employees. Simple hiring and letting go too.

    At my clinic, and I assume it is the same at others in the US, I estimate there are about 10% doctors, 20% PA's and NP's, 30% nurses, and the rest are sitting at desks on computers sorting out claims. There are certainly more in corporate offices somewhere. So the reduction in cost would result from less people needed to process claims, also less or none at insurance companies. Lean...

    And let us not forget the actual doctors who went to school to practice medicine, but scored a better deal with no responsibility working for the insurance companies questioning procedures like my knee case... refusing to approve the MRI my doctor ordered.

    And let's not forget how nice the simplicity to the consumer would be. To not have to even think... it is probably just a cold so I'll save my money and not get it checked... like my friend ended up with a severe case of a rare form of pneumonia which put him in the hospital for 6 weeks. So in this case, we would have saved money if he would have went in early. Specific case, but an example of preventive and early detection costs less than waiting until something gets really bad.

    Have I overlooked something?

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    Yep, life was simple in the 1840's. Medical care if you could get it was a chicken or a goat, no road or fuel taxes, income, in fact about the only taxes were excise taxes for tobacco and alcohol. There was no federal debt as we know it.

    Tom

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    Yep, life was simple in the 1840's. Medical care if you could get it was a chicken or a goat, no road or fuel taxes, income, in fact about the only taxes were excise taxes for tobacco and alcohol. There was no federal debt as we know it.

    Tom
    Aye, and lifespans were generally shorter as well. A few of my ancestors, 1420 or so onward, even died before age 70. One at 63 of natural causes, and one who was hanged at age 42.

    Otherwise, the usual 70's, 80's, 90's, once in a while past a hundred. Largely without medical care as we know it, until Dad was the only survivor when his Jeep it a Teller Anti-Tank landmine. 100% disability, so he only made 92.

    Keys to longevity?

    First, the DNA dice-roll. No way around that. Our tribe both sides branching way back, tended to marry into equally long-lived families lest they be lonely in old-age. Or in a second marriage. G'G Dad starting his second round of kids from age 65 or so onward. Much younger wife, of course. No fool, he..

    Second is lifestyle, nutrition to the good, harmful stuff not as harmful. G'Dad smoked 80 years, died young of it at 89.

    Third is staying TF out of the hands of Doctors and Hospitals, too many of whom may NEVER learn that the human body has been AT this game for a Hell of a long time, and knows a million times as much about taking care of itself than they have yet learned. If only they'd encourage it to do its best instead of piling on chemical confusions it is bound to treat as extra invaders, outcomes could be much better.

    Mind we shall be able, with the stroke of a pen, to legislate long-life and good health no matter how impaired the DNA, nor damaging the lifestyle. Garonteed long life even if you drive into a semi tanker of gasohol whilst texting and git all burnt-up to ashes.

    Just ask any Democrat and get your free student loan and $1,000 a month handout as bonuses for signing-on to the lie not sold in stores, Only "as seen on TV".
    Tax starts at $70,000 per year for shipping and handling.

    Kindly keep on:

    - consuming 60 times the amount of salt you need,
    - ingesting livestock growth hormones as put D-cup bras on 200 lb 9-year olds, all sixteen sexes,
    - learn to like vegetable pesticides,
    - consume a hundred pounds a year of sugar to my one pound a year,
    - ingest near as much again in "diet" artificial sweeteners that you don't mind, but that your gut bacteria turn into lethal poisons and carcinogens,
    - same again those killing you of poor choices of cooking oils and lipid solubles in force-raised meats "char grilled" to add more carcinogens, yet.
    - skip a majority diet including fresh or frozen greens, whole grains, fruit and tree nuts in favor of triple or quadruple the meats, overly fatty, yet, that your body is healthiest with.
    - Buy pond-raised seafood to insure your share of pathogens and the antibiotics loosing the fight against them have a home as well.
    - Same again, poultry and the "Sausage" and "burger" made FROM it, dirt and all
    - Try to lose weight on 1% or 2% "lowfat" milks? We be mammals, Body detects that swill, figures HARD TIMES are here, Goes into Georgia-overdrive at making its OWN damned fats and hoarding them all over the body. Brain included.. Been better-off to have et a spoonful of butter,

    Between all of the above we should now be ready to fire up adult onset diabetes, yah?

    Now that you are comfortably set on-course to digging an early grave with yer own teeth?

    Lets see what we can do with drugs and alcohol to spice up the short life ahead.

    Y'know what?

    We have a problem.

    Pre-existing condition.

    Being too damned stupid-self-indulgent to see to the basic task of being a healthy human being.

    Too DAMNED much like work, yah have to give up a gallon or so of Cola a day and a tray of Hostess Twinkies, favour of a handful of walnuts and a ration of crisp apple and a slice of decent cheese, yah?

    Call it solved. Government will "insure it". Indeed.. they have done, have they not?

    More than one way to reduce crowding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jz79 View Post
    here in Latvia it looks something like this:
    if you want to pay a salary of 2000EUR on hand to to an employee (all taxes are payed by the company), then the cost to company is nearly 3500EUR, that means 1500EUR goes into taxes:
    23% income tax
    24% social security payed by the employer
    11% social security payed by the employee
    It's not that I disagree with how you write things are in Latvia but some may misunderstand the part of your post I'm quoting.

    Companies don't "pay" what you claim. Those amounts are deducted from your wage by law. Different percentages but the same principle in many (all?) north European countries. It is the company responsibility to transfer the deducted amounts to the IRS.

    The alternative would be to pay employees the full earned amount and hope they pay all tax money required. IN GOD WE TRUST. ALL OTHERS PAY THE TAX THEY SHOULD.

    The pay employees get in as good as all north European countries (I've got a feeling most southern European countries find way to cheat or avoid paying the taxes they should) is for personal use (rent, food, clothes, vacation etc.). The money deducted from wages and what the employee receives, is for the benefit of the vast majority plus running the country.

    Is that fair or unfair? I don't know but it has been like that for as long as I can remember and I'm OK (I don't know any that aren't) with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon B. Clarke View Post
    It's not that I disagree with how you write things are in Latvia but some may misunderstand the part of your post I'm quoting.

    Companies don't "pay" what you claim. Those amounts are deducted from your wage by law. Different percentages but the same principle in many (all?) north European countries. It is the company responsibility to transfer the deducted amounts to the IRS.

    The alternative would be to pay employees the full earned amount and hope they pay all tax money required. IN GOD WE TRUST. ALL OTHERS PAY THE TAX THEY SHOULD.

    The pay employees get in as good as all north European countries (I've got a feeling most southern European countries find way to cheat or avoid paying the taxes they should) is for personal use (rent, food, clothes, vacation etc.). The money deducted from wages and what the employee receives, is for the benefit of the vast majority plus running the country.

    Is that fair or unfair? I don't know but it has been like that for as long as I can remember and I'm OK (I don't know any that aren't) with it.
    you simply have different perception of how taxes are collected, generally speaking it makes zero difference whether the company collects all that and forwards it to government accounts or you do it yourself - the total cost of you - "a 50k on hand after taxes employee" to the company doesn't change, it is still 100k that comes out companies gross income, hence the reason why I wrote the example in my previous post, so people in other places can relate

    it is simply that the government doesn't trust the employees to pay all their taxes here, so they put that responsibility (and associated administrative costs) on the companies themselves, easy for the government, but IMO a bad practice in general - makes the general work force unaware of how much they actually cost to the company and how much of their cost is really payed to the government, it is no secret, some companies even give out annual reports to employees, just that 90% of that category are too ignorant to do the math or comprehend where that tax money has to come from, which then may lead to poor work ethic or worse

    to be honest, I don't expect the government here to be able to pay my entitlements when I'll reach my retirement age in 25 or so years, but short of doing something criminal, I have no choice in the matter apart from casting a vote every few years in exchange for fake promises, because every government that comes into power has a tendency to keep on feeding and growing the social security black hole

    The pay employees get in as good as all north European countries
    if I understand what you said correctly, then this is quite far from the truth when it comes to exUSSR states and general economically active work force when compared to "western EU", there is a reason why like 20% of said people have left their home countries (or had left at some point) for greener pastures in other EU countries, but the topic of macroeconomics of exUSSR states is probably beyond the subject of this topic, and too depressing, so I'll stop here

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  22. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    ....
    Kindly keep on:

    - consuming 60 times the amount of salt you need,
    - ingesting livestock growth hormones as put D-cup bras on 200 lb 9-year olds, all sixteen sexes,
    - learn to like vegetable pesticides,
    - consume a hundred pounds a year of sugar to my one pound a year,
    - ingest near as much again in "diet" artificial sweeteners that you don't mind, but that your gut bacteria turn into lethal poisons and carcinogens,
    - same again those killing you of poor choices of cooking oils and lipid solubles in force-raised meats "char grilled" to add more carcinogens, yet.
    - skip a majority diet including fresh or frozen greens, whole grains, fruit and tree nuts in favor of triple or quadruple the meats, overly fatty, yet, that your body is healthiest with.
    - Buy pond-raised seafood to insure your share of pathogens and the antibiotics loosing the fight against them have a home as well.
    - Same again, poultry and the "Sausage" and "burger" made FROM it, dirt and all
    - Try to lose weight on 1% or 2% "lowfat" milks? We be mammals, Body detects that swill, figures HARD TIMES are here, Goes into Georgia-overdrive at making its OWN damned fats and hoarding them all over the body. Brain included.. Been better-off to have et a spoonful of butter,....
    Another spot on rant. Go, Bill!

    Roadkill is prob the best meat to be had around here. Grouse is my favorite. Mating season rolls around, males dazed and confused, despondent at lack of luck? No matter, cars don't care. Still warm, legs and breast come off/out with a quick yank, into the pan with garlic and a little bacon fat. Mmm.

    I do wish they'd develop their leg strength a bit more, though.

    Our Legislature transferred responsibility and authority for all the nonhuman beasts in the State to Fish and Game, so they "own" the wildlife. (Until they eat my orchard.) Taking a deer carcass off the road is a finable offense. OK to walk around in the woods and actively kill 'em, but taking already dead off the road and eating them is illegal. Go figure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jz79 View Post
    you simply have different perception of how taxes are collected, generally speaking it makes zero difference whether the company collects all that and forwards it to government accounts or you do it yourself - the total cost of you - "a 50k on hand after taxes employee" to the company doesn't change, it is still 100k that comes out companies gross income, hence the reason why I wrote the example in my previous post, so people in other places can relate
    I don't have a "different perception". Tax deductions by companies have nothing to do with their gross income.

    What we do have are different perceptions of how taxes are collected from those that work.

    The tax amount deducted from your pay is your contribution to taxes and what you get from it. It isn't part of company profits or losses.

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    Gordon, I think you're arguing because you're bored, or more likely the Danish sepriority complex, you basically repeated what I said in both my previous posts, but somehow managed to twist it so that your view is somehow more correct...

    in my view the employers and employees part of taxes of said employee are inseparable, because both affect how much the employer can afford to pay the employee while still remaining competitive in their market, which does have something to do with company gross income, I wasnt talking about specifics of book keeping, but about the total cost of an employee to the company, but you seem to imply that somehow the employers side of employees tax can somehow exist on its own, and employee shouldnt be bothered with it?

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    In India the income tax is about 32%, GST is about 18%, labour costs in India are quite low that machine shops charge less than USD 6-10 per hour which included all labour costs plus raw material cost.
    Its cheaper for western countries to set up shop here and manufacture their parts and ship them to their assembly shops for their mass production needs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ganeshjanakan View Post
    Its cheaper for western countries to set up shop here and manufacture their parts and ship them to their assembly shops for their mass production needs.
    Surely you mean China?
    Or is it Africa...oh that place is next...


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