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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanASM View Post
    I do not have debt. House was paid off 20 years ago. Cars are paid for. My machines do not break. Bought out Greenfield Tap and Die's tool crib 20 years ago and still find pans of tooling that are new old stock.

    I can run 4-5 machines at 36/hr (144-180/hr). Only had 1 set of cams made in 28 years. Have thousands on the wall that work just fine with little to no alterations. I am making a cam right now for a job coming back from China. Making it myself with no out of pocket cost.

    Wages were $5/hr when I was a little kid. It is now $15/hr. I make most of my own tooling from old stock.

    The only thing that has gone up that I buy regularly is fast food prices and gas. I do not see any increase in what I buy at the grocery store. Gas is not even thought of with 40mpg car and 5 min from the shop.

    Jobs repeat and stay on machines so when they come back around I just load the machine up and make sure tools are sharp. 12L14 can run from monday morning to friday afternoon with downtime only to load another 12' bar.

    When the recession hit it sucked pretty bad but we have no debt so we just waited for it to come back around. I am having my best year in 28 years and have never run a CNC in my life. I do want one this year though and my customers want me to have one too. Wont be financing one either.

    Never went to college. At 18 I asked many questions on how I would be able to pay back student loans after college. No one could tell me how I would put cash in my pocket after college. Couldnt get loans unless went to school full time. Couldnt work if I went to school full time. Made the decision then not to go to college. I now learn everything I want from youtube for just the cost of internet.

    I sleep like a baby and dont have to do anything I do not want to do in life. Never have to worry about where my next meal comes from.

    Although I am always open to suggestions especially if they are good ones. But I never have to do what someone tells me to do and that is a great feeling.
    This sums up my business plan pretty well...

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanASM View Post
    Never went to college. At 18 I asked many questions on how I would be able to pay back student loans after college. No one could tell me how I would put cash in my pocket after college. Couldnt get loans unless went to school full time. Couldnt work if I went to school full time. Made the decision then not to go to college. I now learn everything I want from youtube for just the cost of internet.

    .
    Just to add to this a little bit. My friends who went to college and got loans graduated in the summer of 2009. Student loans cannot be cleared by bankruptcy. I watched so many people ruin there lives from this debt. People couldnt get a car loan to drive 1.5-2 hours away for the jobs that were available (we live 2 hours from Boston, 1 hour from Springfield, 1 hour from Worcester(major cities)).

    These people were smart enough to get into college but not smart enough to figure out they would be slaves to debt for the next 10-15 years. Most went back to the jobs they had in high school. Delivering pizzas, working at grocery stores,etc.

    And if you go to college and then move back to your small town in the woods where educated careers dont exist it will be very difficult to get by. Many youth cant think long term.

    Look around you, if you dont see companies around that hire in the field your educating yourself in then you will have to move to where the work is. Most youth dont know how to live on there own and cannot fathom doing this. Student loans are due upon graduation or you can default and ruin your credit. Cant rent and apartment, get a car loan.

    I saw this as not feasable at 18 years old. After the economy crashed I looked into schooling again in 2010. Again all I got was the same story. College recruiters just trying to get enough people to sign up to justify their job as a recruiter. Everyone looking out for themselves and not the people they are supposed to be helping.

    Now that we have access to unlimited amounts of knowledge through the internet I now see college just for Doctors and Lawyers. Almost any other career path does not need college.

    I hope my experience will be looked upon by many and used to help make better decisions about starting/continuing in your career paths.

    Self made, self paid.

    -Dan

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    I wouldn't be surprised if you agree that those "friends" also looked down on you for not choosing to go to college, and work a job that includes getting your hands dirty. That was my experience anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dkmc View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if you agree that those "friends" also looked down on you for not choosing to go to college, and work a job that includes getting your hands dirty. That was my experience anyway.
    None of them look down on me. We all grew up poor in a small town. They just went to college because they were told thats how you make it in this world. Unless you want to flip burgers for minimum wage.

    Funny thing is thats exactly what the ones who went to college ended up doing after graduating. Flipping burgers for minimum wage.

    The people I grew up with who were wealthy from birth I met through snowboarding. They never wondered how I made a living but were always welcoming and nice to me. Always let me in there homes and treated me like everyone else. Sometimes people with money and wealth do raise their children properly. I was always amazed at how much nicer their 2nd home (vacation property) was compared to mine. I can only imagine how nice their main house is. NJ,CT, Long Island. its not uncommon to have a million dollar home down there.

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    If you are doing a T&M job how do you adjust your rate for overtime? As an example. One of my customers just now hit me with a large emergency job repairing some damaged equipment. They indicated that money is not an issue just get the work done asap. I was told if I need to use OT do it they will pay for it. This is the first time anyone has ever said that to me. So when my guys are working OT I am now wondering what shop rate to use. 1-1/2 times normal? What would you guys do? They are a very good customer to work for and they give me a fair amount of work. & Pay timely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gear cutter View Post
    If you are doing a T&M job how do you adjust your rate for overtime? As an example. One of my customers just now hit me with a large emergency job repairing some damaged equipment. They indicated that money is not an issue just get the work done asap. I was told if I need to use OT do it they will pay for it. This is the first time anyone has ever said that to me. So when my guys are working OT I am now wondering what shop rate to use. 1-1/2 times normal? What would you guys do? They are a very good customer to work for and they give me a fair amount of work. & Pay timely.
    Usually its best to quote OT as double time. This is usually because you wont know exactly how long it will take and what issues will arise.

    If it is a good customer and you are getting T+M and are honest with them I would suggest 1.5x shop rate. Sunday is double time. You dont want to burn out your guys with too much O.T. so it may be best to pay them double time as a thank you to your workers for putting the extra hours in.

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  9. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    Not to mention in 25 years he probably has collected every cam possible as well as setting up in his sleep. And while times have been changing and shops converting over to cnc Swiss @ over $100k increasing their overhead his little $500 B&S pays for itself daily. And, FWIW, there is not many jobs a Swiss can compete with a cam machine.

    B&S and Acme Gridley are the original cash machines.
    That is how it use to be. Now CNC machines are faster and have less idle time. CNC owners will spend more on equipment for their machines than they would even dream of spending on a cam machine. How many cam machines run lights out? How many CNC don't run lights out? A bar loader,broken tool detector,carbide inserts,when did you see that on a cam machine? Yes, I have seen that on cam machines but it is/was not the norm.
    I do say good luck to people using cam machines,long may you continue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by camscan View Post
    That is how it use to be. Now CNC machines are faster and have less idle time. CNC owners will spend more on equipment for their machines than they would even dream of spending on a cam machine. How many cam machines run lights out? How many CNC don't run lights out? A bar loader,broken tool detector,carbide inserts,when did you see that on a cam machine? Yes, I have seen that on cam machines but it is/was not the norm.
    I do say good luck to people using cam machines,long may you continue.
    It's all about the application.

    I ran B&S 00's making bomb rack lock pins (near lights out) until Fastenal bought me out in 2006. After they bought me out they liquidated the machine shop side and kept the industrial supply. The little shop down the road bought my three B&S's along with the rack pin job and is still running them today. The parts pretty much look like the ones in this vid, so I have to ask why someone would invest in a new $100K+ machine when a $500 surplus machine can do the same thing with almost zero overhead?

    There is just something about the smell of Sultex D in the air and hearing the "Clink" of the part hitting the catcher that still brings joy to old school machinist.


    YouTube

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  12. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by WA-CNC View Post
    I tell customers I'm at $65/hr.

    But recently on my quote spreadsheet I've been using $75-85/hr.
    Quote Originally Posted by crazygoat View Post
    Great way to build customer relationships. Lying always helps.
    Hourly rates don't mean a thing. It's the final price that counts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pariel View Post
    Why would you tell your customer your shop rate at all?
    It's all part of the sales strategy. Nothing more, nothing less. No need to get up in arms about it.

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    Seems like maybe folks in this thread are interpreting the question differently.

    Some are acting like it is $50 an hour for the whole shop. Others are interpreting it as per part or per machine. That seems more realistic.

    I know you are mostly all living in places with vastly lower costs of living than where I am just outside of Silicon Valley but seriously the corner auto shop charges $150 an hour here.

    I just had a tankless water heater installed it was $6700 total with $1700 for the heating unit. That was two guys for 10 hours at $5000 for the labor.

    You couldn't pay for consumables with some of the shop rates people have listed here. My local CNC factory dealer charges $175 plus drive time. Atlas Copco was at $150 two years ago when I talked to them.

    If you are selling your skilled time for less than the local shade tree mechanic and or 'throw parts at it' tech from my dealer you are crazy. The starting pay at our local fast food place for burger flippers is $17/hr.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dkmc View Post
    Just curious on where shop rates are these days.
    I'm at $75 base rate, mostly manual machining, small quantities. Includes some design and repair work as well. A bit of Fab and welding too. Mostly anything interesting I can make my rate (or better) on. I'm trying to get an idea if that's an average for a small 1-2 man shop in the north east. But it'd be interesting to hear from others in other parts of the US as well. Have you managed to raise your rate in the last 5 years, or have you had to lower it? Or has it been the same for ? years?
    I'm at the $70 to $80 rate depending on the job coming in.

  16. #72
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    3-4 Axis $75-90
    5 Axis production jobs that run with no headache $100-150 (We have automation on all our 5 axis machines and run lights out on almost every job. Can charge less when the machine time can be spread across min ~100 a week.
    5 axis prototype jobs $150 - $250 an hour

    Its all relative tho... I've spent ~$3 million in new equipment since 2012. Playing the long game with automation.

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  18. #73
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    Couldn't see anyone else posting it so -

    The OP's Q was ''What's your $shop rate$ these days? ''

    To which there can only ever be one answer ;- NOT ENOUGH
    Last edited by Limy Sami; 09-16-2019 at 07:30 AM. Reason: typo

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  20. #74
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    62.50$$$$$$
    Gw

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    Quote Originally Posted by dstryr View Post
    3-4 Axis $75-90
    5 Axis production jobs that run with no headache $100-150 (We have automation on all our 5 axis machines and run lights out on almost every job. Can charge less when the machine time can be spread across min ~100 a week.
    5 axis prototype jobs $150 - $250 an hour

    Its all relative tho... I've spent ~$3 million in new equipment since 2012. Playing the long game with automation.
    I'd like to chat with you about your automation path. We are headed down the same road but probably not going to spend 3mil. We see automation as the future as I'm sure you do also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    It's all about the application.

    I ran B&S 00's making bomb rack lock pins (near lights out) until Fastenal bought me out in 2006. After they bought me out they liquidated the machine shop side and kept the industrial supply. The little shop down the road bought my three B&S's along with the rack pin job and is still running them today. The parts pretty much look like the ones in this vid, so I have to ask why someone would invest in a new $100K+ machine when a $500 surplus machine can do the same thing with almost zero overhead?

    There is just something about the smell of Sultex D in the air and hearing the "Clink" of the part hitting the catcher that still brings joy to old school machinist.


    YouTube
    I appreciate that there are jobs out there that scream cam auto but the accuracy is not there for the limits on a lot of today's components,and I was a cam man. I served my time on them,had my own business making cams and tools for them and recognise a dinosaur when I see one. So,yes I have a lot of time for cam machines but .....

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    Quote Originally Posted by camscan View Post
    I appreciate that there are jobs out there that scream cam auto but the accuracy is not there for the limits on a lot of today's components,and I was a cam man. I served my time on them,had my own business making cams and tools for them and recognise a dinosaur when I see one. So,yes I have a lot of time for cam machines but .....
    That's the longest I've ever looked at a cam machine.
    HolyMoly the retract and index is friggin instant!
    So much faster than the CNC lathes I had.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbter View Post
    That's the longest I've ever looked at a cam machine.
    HolyMoly the retract and index is friggin instant!
    So much faster than the CNC lathes I had.
    I've always wanted one, and every time I see them go for a few hundred bucks it is HARD not to buy one. There is a machinery dealer a bit north of me that has a small mountain of tooling and misc that go on those machines. When I say small mountain, easily several semi truck loads.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    I've always wanted one, and every time I see them go for a few hundred bucks it is HARD not to buy one. There is a machinery dealer a bit north of me that has a small mountain of tooling and misc that go on those machines. When I say small mountain, easily several semi truck loads.
    I just bought 3 Brownies for $1300. I will make my money back the first day they go into production. I have 20 of them now in a 3-5 man shop.

    That video made me smile. I dont always run into people who understand what I do.

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    Next time I am in Mass, if it is possible, I will make a point to stop by


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