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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    Is that really a new thing? We just buried my wife's uncle. He was 56. Never left home. Lived with mom until she passed 2 years ago, then stayed on in the house until his passing. He worked a good job from the time he was 17. He just didn't want to leave home, and momma never pushed him out the door.

    My grandfather moved one time, 100 yards down the lane to a house he built on the family farm in his early 20s. My grandmother still lives in that house today. She is 96. They didn't own the land that house sat on until they were both in their late 50s and finally inherited it. They never paid rent or had a "real" job. They worked on the farm and eventually that farm was given to them free and clear.

    Almost every farmer I know lives in a house that was given to him. Some live in a house they built on land that was given to them. Nobody calls them lazy.

    I have an uncle on my mom's side and an aunt on my dad's side who have never lived in a home that wasn't owned by their parents. Never paid rent. These people are in their late 50s.

    It seems like the only thing that has changed is that mom and dad are making the kids live in their house because they can't afford to buy them a house like their parent's generation could and did.
    Nobody on either side of my parents family received a house...must be a Midwest thing. I still live in my parents house, they live in South Carolina and I have a mortgage lol...guess I bought them the house

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pariel View Post
    Pretty sure equating gustafson's defense of Millenials carrying more debt and higher costs of living with sticking up for a the bunch of deadbeats you know is a straw man at best.

    I'm gonna guess I know a whole lot more 20- and 30-somethings than you, and the difference is the ones you describe are the ones I don't hang out with. Your generation has its share of deadbeats too, I don't judge you collectively based on it.
    Don't think anybody gets to choose their time of birth. I'm 65 and couldn't agree more.

    Plenty of deadbeats in my generation. A couple of 'em (fratboy good time drunk and rich baby) even became president.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    Typical liberal, making excuses for people right and left. The three people I know in their late 20's living at home never went to college. I have a nephew also in his late 20's he doesn't live at home, he is in jail. He was always too lazy to work and decided being a thief was a better way to make a living. Back when I was a kid I didn't know anyone male or female living at home at that age. My dad's generation where he was from had to work even harder than mine as a youth. Most people grew a lot of their own food so there were plenty of choirs waiting for them after school. From the age of 6 I had chores. I know plenty of adults who lived at home in the last 20 years that never lifted a finger to help out or hand over a red cent. That would have never happened when and were I grew up.
    typical right winger, ignorant of facts and history

    how do your made up stories actually show any understanding of reality?

    How does your selfish ideology where corporations make up all the rules, solve these issues

    kids live at home because jobs pay crap and living expenses are higher as a percentage of income

    your ideology will make that worse

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  6. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    No arguments that there are dead beats in every generation, what I am saying is there are more and more with each passing generation. To say there isn't is just being in denial. Next Gust will tell me there are just as many of the under 30 crowd playing video games 25 hours a week as there were in 1975. If you were a dead beat in 1865 and you didn't come from money you died. As we go on and on it is easier for a higher percentage of the masses to survive without giving a good effort.

    It is you who are in denial, there are no more deadbeats now that any other time

    you are just suffering from old mans disease

    the past was not better and kids are not lazy, they are paying for your retirement

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  8. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    It is you who are in denial, there are no more deadbeats now that any other time

    you are just suffering from old mans disease

    the past was not better and kids are not lazy, they are paying for your retirement

    LOL!

    There may be some truth in there somewhere....
    ???


    ------------------------

    I know Folks who Never Werked, and they've got Plenty
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pariel View Post
    That said, (and I don't know specifically about 1865 America) if you look at most of history pre-electricity, people worked less than they do today, not more. It's no longer about what effort is required to live, it's about competing for the resources that are available, which includes jobs, education, etc.
    That is about the stupidest comment I ever heard. You need to go to some museums, colonial towns, old military forts or visit places like Mt Vernon. You must have been stoned or slept through all your history classes. People over a century ago spent major portions of their day just to feed themselves. Maybe you weren't aware
    they didn't have refrigerators in houses and supermarkets in the 1800's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    It is you who are in denial, there are no more deadbeats now that any other time

    you are just suffering from old mans disease

    the past was not better and kids are not lazy, they are paying for your retirement
    Just a typical liberal making up lies, then the other liberals run with them.

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    Default Where are all the Machinists

    Today’s younger people are definitely lazier than those of the past.

    Why?

    Lots of reasons, actually.

    Today’s youth have spent most of their entire lives using social media, staring at their smart phones for a big part of their waking hours. Well, that’s just unadulterated sorriness right there!

    Someone mentioned video games, and yes, a lot of 20- and 30-something men veg out on the couch for a lot of hours in a typical week.

    Video games of 30 years ago could only hold our interest an hour or two at most.

    Today’s youth are not changing their own oil, they’re not detailing their own car, they’re not even mowing dad’s lawn! They are at the brewery or local bar drinking like sailors and giving back the money they made the night before waiting tables.

    Just in the last 30 years or so, America’s gluttonous culture has revered eating out and drinking. We spend a ton of money stuffing our guts and floating our livers at countless set-down restaurants and such. So what you say? Well, today’s youth are enjoying the riches of our gluttony, with their 15-30% tips.

    America wasn’t so fat 30+ years ago, we didn’t eat out as much, and bartending and waitressing didn’t pay squat back then.

    If you wanted to make a decent living as an adult, we knew it wasn’t going to be waiting tables and pouring beer!

    Mommy’s and daddy’s are financially better off than those of the past, and today’s “coddling” culture of child rearing has enabled the current generation of youth to skirt by with just doing some remedial service job while living at home, conserving all their money for self-centered entertainment and materialism.

    I’ve always said that a screwed-up adult is usually the result of a screwed-up upbringing by mommy and daddy.

    Another example: STEM enrollment at university by American youth has been down for years...they’re just too damn lazy and don’t want to do the work!

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    Well, my daughter ca$hed in on that subject!

    She got an RN degree on an average of 32 hrs a week at a Jap (no Japs involved) seafood restaurant. Then when she finished skewl, she paid ca$h for a nice used car. I am amazed at what is possible [for her?] but apparently the salesman at the dealership about fell off his chair when - after him mentioning "financing" several times and her saying that she didn't need it, finally she opened her purse to show him $12G in ca$h, and said that she "didn't think she needed financing"!

    My boy werked here in the shop for 9 years part time durng the skewl year, and full time (plus) summers for 9 years while in Jr high/HS/college, and 1 year full time after that. Apparently this is enough incentive to not have to werk on a shop floor! He does just fine as a 'putor programmer with a 7 year pay-back plan for his skewl loans - so that he can then get on with life. (he should only have a cpl years to go by now)

    My kids, and most of their skewl chums are very much setting the world a'farr!



    EDIT:

    But, as per the OP's question, one machinist that I know (my boy) decided that white collar was more for him.
    So there is one at least...


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    But, as per the OP's question, one machinist that I know (my boy) decided that white collar was more for him.
    So there is one at least...
    Hardly the first. To be any GOOD as a machinist or Toolmaker, one cannot be stoopid.

    Much as I enjoyed "making stuff" and the challenge of visualizing the future and designing to avoid problems, the same mental skills found easily as much challenge in Management in general.

    Which paid sooo much better that I could then afford to indulge my metals-mangling manias as well-funded hobbies. Side payback of hardly EVER having to pay a plumber, electrician, HVAC tech, auto-mechanic, roofer, brick mason, tile-setter, or anything carpenterish , etc.

    As to loans? Union Scale machinist wages, 2d & 3rd shift, University daytimes, then GI-Bill, Day Job, night school..

    Pay as you go, Take as much time as it takes - WORK at a "real job" the whole journey, (RN is a good one..) and never have a single dime in loans for any of it - have comfortable pocket money instead.

    All a body had to do was minimize spend on older whiskey, younger bedclothes, slower horses, faster cars, drugs of any sort, damned-fool do-dads and earbud gadgetry... and oh yazz.

    ..time wasted on superfluous SLEEPING.

    Good to hear yer kids have mostly kept up the old ways.

    The US average of $37,000 in student loans is..... an abysmal scam when the degree's granted are as likely to get a REJECTION as a job.

    Further.. s(he) who has the least debt burden wins on flexibility of choice.

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  17. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    Today’s younger people are definitely lazier than those of the past.

    Why?

    Lots of reasons, actually.

    Today’s youth have spent most of their entire lives using social media, staring at their smart phones for a big part of their waking hours. Well, that’s just unadulterated sorriness right there!

    Someone mentioned video games, and yes, a lot of 20- and 30-something men veg out on the couch for a lot of hours in a typical week.

    Video games of 30 years ago could only hold our interest an hour or two at most.

    Today’s youth are not changing their own oil, they’re not detailing their own car, they’re not even mowing dad’s lawn! They are at the brewery or local bar drinking like sailors and giving back the money they made the night before waiting tables.

    Just in the last 30 years or so, America’s gluttonous culture has revered eating out and drinking. We spend a ton of money stuffing our guts and floating our livers at countless set-down restaurants and such. So what you say? Well, today’s youth are enjoying the riches of our gluttony, with their 15-30% tips.

    America wasn’t so fat 30+ years ago, we didn’t eat out as much, and bartending and waitressing didn’t pay squat back then.

    If you wanted to make a decent living as an adult, we knew it wasn’t going to be waiting tables and pouring beer!

    Mommy’s and daddy’s are financially better off than those of the past, and today’s “coddling” culture of child rearing has enabled the current generation of youth to skirt by with just doing some remedial service job while living at home, conserving all their money for self-centered entertainment and materialism.

    I’ve always said that a screwed-up adult is usually the result of a screwed-up upbringing by mommy and daddy.

    Another example: STEM enrollment at university by American youth has been down for years...they’re just too damn lazy and don’t want to do the work!
    I agree with your observations Toolcat. I still think the younger generation can still do as they best can if they get less criticism and more direction. A lot of shops hire them in to push buttons and then do not help them grow.

    At the end of the work week the paycheck is low and their future is left only to how well they can thrive and proGress. It used to be the case the younger generation was mentored by the older Machinists because the mentors learned that way and so they felt the duty to carry that on. Employers mostly do not care for these efforts and increasingly care less and less for treating tHe older workers well. Over 50 they are on the top of lay-off lists despite their experience. A small percentage still hold on but this is a real trend.

    Shops want young workers who run the CNC’s as directed and this seems to serve their outlook on manufacturing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    Today’s younger people are definitely lazier than those of the past.

    Why?

    Lots of reasons, actually.

    Today’s youth have spent most of their entire lives using social media, staring at their smart phones for a big part of their waking hours. Well, that’s just unadulterated sorriness right there!

    Someone mentioned video games, and yes, a lot of 20- and 30-something men veg out on the couch for a lot of hours in a typical week.

    Video games of 30 years ago could only hold our interest an hour or two at most.

    Today’s youth are not changing their own oil, they’re not detailing their own car, they’re not even mowing dad’s lawn! They are at the brewery or local bar drinking like sailors and giving back the money they made the night before waiting tables.

    Just in the last 30 years or so, America’s gluttonous culture has revered eating out and drinking. We spend a ton of money stuffing our guts and floating our livers at countless set-down restaurants and such. So what you say? Well, today’s youth are enjoying the riches of our gluttony, with their 15-30% tips.

    America wasn’t so fat 30+ years ago, we didn’t eat out as much, and bartending and waitressing didn’t pay squat back then.

    If you wanted to make a decent living as an adult, we knew it wasn’t going to be waiting tables and pouring beer!

    Mommy’s and daddy’s are financially better off than those of the past, and today’s “coddling” culture of child rearing has enabled the current generation of youth to skirt by with just doing some remedial service job while living at home, conserving all their money for self-centered entertainment and materialism.

    I’ve always said that a screwed-up adult is usually the result of a screwed-up upbringing by mommy and daddy.

    Another example: STEM enrollment at university by American youth has been down for years...they’re just too damn lazy and don’t want to do the work!
    I'd give that a "like" if the software to doo that weren't hooked to an advert collecter and blocked...

    One other thing.. The "bell curve" still applies. The few, the wise, the motivated go-getters at the thin upper range of it can STILL coin gobs of opportunities, turn them into money, flexible life-styles, or both.

    That so many others are not serious competition is not really a blessing.

    They are also a poor customer base, long-since, and going forward, an increasingly lazy/greedy easily-fooled voting block, and ultimately an ever-higher percentage of tax burdens rather than load-sharers.

    Ultimately, that chasing of "OPM" for "free" <flavour of the day.. AKA 'everything'> leads to a looter culture, not a producer culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    Today’s younger people are definitely lazier than those of the past.

    Why?

    Lots of reasons, actually.
    Come on. They have video games, you have model trains. What's the difference exactly?

    I remember when I was 20 doing an internship at a large facility. The management decided to ban newspapers. I'd guess the average age of a worker there was around 45, and that was 14 years ago, so let's call them mostly baby boomers.

    Well let me tell you about the backlash to that policy! It very nearly caused a walk out. It was so bad that they reversed the policy within a few days.

    Same thing with cigarettes. Younger people don't seem to smoke nearly as much. I've worked with plenty of guys who could waste several hours a day on "cigarette breaks". It's even worse now that most places won't let them smoke inside.

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  22. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    Come on. They have video games, you have model trains. What's the difference exactly?
    "Intensity" if one can do with but a single word. The relative percentage of time of our lives allocated.

    Surely - every era of man has had their distractions and concept of "leisure".

    What's been changing - for several human generations, already - is the higher percentage who consider such things to be "entitlements" or "rights-to".

    Whom is it - besides the collective "we" - off our own sweat - as "grants" such rights, funds those entitlements?

    "God given?" Yah? Well.... Ever try to even FIND the old skinflint to get his personal chop on a bar tab?

    Good luck with that!

    "The state?" Irony of irony the new left are damned-near-verbatim quoting Stalin's 1936-vintage USSR Constitution. Sounds a good 'un, too, what with what it promised. Studied that in HS. Long time ago. Promises not kept class. Lacked the means to fund them, dumb-you-nism did..

    Not new. Then or now. Old Joe held no patent on that sort of "Bu Ci".

    But even Federal & US State subsistence programs TRY to not cover bar-tabs, nor even "luxury" foodstuffs, either.

    Bottom line is that any living creature (or "body corporate"), has to scramble to survive.
    Work to "earn" what we need and want. One way or another. Honest or not. Fair or not.

    "Promises" are a poor substitute, low in nutritional value. Worse yet to those who actually BELIEVE them. Fatal, even, in the long term.

    T'was ever thus...

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    I'd give that a "like" if the software to doo that weren't hooked to an advert collecter and blocked...

    One other thing.. The "bell curve" still applies. The few, the wise, the motivated go-getters at the thin upper range of it can STILL coin gobs of opportunities, turn them into money, flexible life-styles, or both.

    That so many others are not serious competition is not really a blessing.

    They are also a poor customer base, long-since, and going forward, an increasingly lazy/greedy easily-fooled voting block, and ultimately an ever-higher percentage of tax burdens rather than load-sharers.

    Ultimately, that chasing of "OPM" for "free" <flavour of the day.. AKA 'everything'> leads to a looter culture, not a producer culture.
    I smell a little Ayn Rand in there somewhere...: ::
    BUT, the 30 somethings still living at the parents house is very real in my circles. Sad truth here in my surrounding culture (rebar industry) is lots of unmotivated “victims” are angry white kids that last, at most, one year. And that’s just delivering the rebar, not tying it!!!
    Constantly complaining that they don’t make more, even though they are new employees. One year? You’re new. Prove yourself! After 5 years money starts pouring in after you prove willingness and loyalty.

    Hate to sound too much like a libtard, but the North Americans from Mexico ("wut, Mexico ain't north 'murcia?!?!?") and the “newer” guys from Central & South America) work 10 times harder than us white kids here. And they start working at 7:00 AM, not unloading their 64oz mug, Rockstar cans and lunch (read:luggage bag) in the shop fridge, then putting their contacts in, taking off their street shoes and putting on boots, then wandering around with the other whiner to tell him about the new Kimber .45 they bought last night, after stopping at Check City.

    NOW, I am a bit unfairly bashing on these angry white kids with their Punisher decals and American Badass attitudes... Lemme wax a bit more right leaning...
    At least they are getting a job! The 30-somethings that still live at mom's, whom I have also dealt with, seem to be the "I'm sick" pros. When they actually get a job, they often are confident, non-confrontational talkers that simply state, "I won't be able to work today, thanks!"
    And very hipster.
    And VERY confident that they already know "a lot about a lot of things".
    Almost seems like they put on makeup before work. (That was rude)
    Instead of Check City, then over to get black rims and mudder tires, these ones are "borrowing" from parents to finance a new car, while working an average of 2 days a week until moving on to the next job.

    During my safety meeting recently, I began my words of wisdom by poking a bit at the angry 'murican kids, by saying, "Remember, max age for bait fishing is twelve. After that we can graduate to something a bit more skilled, like artificial lures, or even (gasp) a fly rod?

    Later, mommy's 30-something kept wanting to weld instead of do what he was asked (bend rebar) and I mentioned entitlement in a non-confrontational way. Yikes, you could tell that was an ongoing at-home subject by his reaction!
    Last edited by TheOldCar; 07-06-2019 at 12:53 PM. Reason: Wrong industry, but related to willingness to work

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOldCar View Post
    I smell a little Ayn Rand in there somewhere...: ::
    *yawn* I had a less-than-philosophically-satisfying chat with her young pronger one August of 1965 afternoon in New Yawk. 'minded me of a reptile.... His legal wife at the time (Barbara) wrote far the better book, ages later.

    Bob Heinlein was far the wiser writer. So, too, John D. MacDonald. Superb understanding of humans and their foibles. "Travis McGee" was a fiction. The characters he deal with, OTOH? We've MET those!

    Lots of PRACTICAL folk had grown up - subsistence farming will do it - knowing more than Ms Alice the Author lived long enough to learn about REAL humans and our needs and ways of satisfying them.

    So noooo.. not one of Alice's daydreams, here. "Ms. Agnes" a redneck Rolls-Royce pickup truck was exposed to more realistic characters!

    Nah. I'm just a hereditary self-reliant... survivor. Montani Semper Liberi

    "I got mine". But I DID have to work my young arse off to get it...

    As I had EXPECTED to have to do. So BFD.

    There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free lunch.... nor "free" anything else outside of your own mind, studiously applied, either.


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    Danger: you just got a "like" from a lefty!

    (Well, lefty for Utah anyway..)

    Hey, don't you yawn at me! I'm entitled to warm fuzzy compliments!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOldCar View Post
    (Well, lefty for Utah anyway..)

    Hey, don't you yawn at me! I'm entitled to warm fuzzy compliments!
    LOL! welll.... "it's America!"

    Many of those in the "center" are really only classed as such because SOME of our positions on certain issues.. are to the left of Karl Marx.. and OTHER positions are to the right of Atilla the Hun...

    That.. and a "Bu Ci" detector as to political "pries" (promise-lies) sorta averages out.

    I did say "America" because Canadians, Mexicans, and South have had to develop their own, very similar, ways of dealing with essentially the same bulls**t, different house brands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ewlsey View Post
    Same thing with cigarettes. Younger people don't seem to smoke nearly as much. I've worked with plenty of guys who could waste several hours a day on "cigarette breaks". It's even worse now that most places won't let them smoke inside.
    I worked at a place decades ago where you were allowed to smoke anywhere outside the building. Each machine had a 5 gallon chip bucket sitting next to it. The chip bins were under an awning outside the building at least 100 yards outside the entrance to our department. Us non smokers never had to dump chips. The second thing a smoker did after shaking a new hire's hand was ask them if they smoked. If not they offered to dump their chips. If a non smoker was fortunate enough to be running a job that generated a lot of chips that required dumping the bucket multiple times a shift he could pretty much get free drinks and snacks to let someone take the chips.

    Since I always brown bagged, brought a cooler of sodas and water I always traded chip dumping for doing my crap work I hated. At that job it was CNC Swiss and cam automatics. We were assigned machines and did everything, set-up, operate, clean sumps, tumble parts, etc,etc for our assigned machines. I never cleaned a sump or picked tacks out of tumbled parts. I had long term deals with smokers.

    Smoking was quite expensive where I worked, not only did the heavy smokers have to buy a couple packs of cigs a day they had to shell out a couple bucks a day for coffees, sodas and candy bars.

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