Why is working off the clock a problem?

In one of the crime reenactment programs a woman who worked in a supermarket came in a little early and worked a few minutes before clocking in. A co worker reported it and got her fired. Why is that a big issue? I can see a reprimand for various reasons but supposedly her work was good and the management said they regreted the decision but had no choice.

Bill

Insurance I’m sure just follow the money

Someone else could report it to the labor commission and cause a world of hurt to the employer, even if both parties consented. There could also be insurance issues if the individual hurts themselves or someone else.

In the shop world, there are people who work off the clock for the boss, or for their own projects. The 'for the boss' scenario is the problem with regulators. The 'for their own projects' scenario can be an insurance issue.

There's a slippery slope from "allowed to work off the clock" to "required to work off the clock" and part of the social contract with hourly workers is that you get paid for the hours worked.

"Clock out and do your own thing" is different. We let employees do that. Some places may be stricter because of potential workman's comp or liability issues.

One reason is that various collective work agreements prohibit it, for reasons along the lines Comatose noted.

Another reason is surely the division between non-exempt (paid by the hour, clock in and clock out) and exempt (salaried) folks - where the later are presumed to have a lot of discretion and much more freedom to alter time as well as work patterns.

Yet another reason lies in the set of things that distinquish an employee from an independent contractor....

Now, could it be that the person deserved a written warning (require in most conditions in WA state), so they didn't *have* to fire her until after she ignored such warnings? I don't know....

Note that when I went on leave from Microsoft (long unpaid) I was told it was explicitly illegal for me to be working on company stuff....

The woman was doing her walmart job off the clock, which puts the company liable for anything that happens to her. She would not be covered by the workman's comp policy, or at least they would have to fight it out with the lawyers. I'm sure Walmart has a written policy that covers that.

It's okay to come in early, but CLOCK IN!

When I was an hourly, I always came in 15-20 minutes early to get ready for my shift. If my shift started at 7:30, I took that to mean that at 7:30, I was expected to be standing in front of my machine ready to make parts. I clocked in, but did not expect to get paid for those minutes (and wasn't).

We were always allowed to do G-jobs on our own time, but that practice is going away due to liability reasons. Lots of small shops still allow it, almost no big ones will.

The place I used to work at, you could not clock in more than 7 minutes early. That was government reg.
We got 2 paid 15 minute breaks per day. If you went to store in your personal vehicle, you clock out and back in. If you took a company vehicle you could stay on the clock. That was a insurance reg. I always thought some of the rules were pretty stupid until I got into management. Its a wonder anything gets done.

The place I used to work at, you could not clock in more than 7 minutes early. That was government reg.
We got 2 paid 15 minute breaks per day. If you went to store in your personal vehicle, you clock out and back in. If you took a company vehicle you could stay on the clock. That was a insurance reg. I always thought some of the rules were pretty stupid until I got into management. Its a wonder anything gets done.

From the Feds:

Some employers track employee hours worked in 15 minute increments, and the FLSA allows an employer to round employee time to the nearest quarter hour. However, an employer may violate the FLSA minimum wage and overtime pay requirements if the employer always rounds down. Employee time from 1 to 7 minutes may be rounded down, and thus not counted as hours worked, but employee time from 8 to 14 minutes must be rounded up and counted as a quarter hour of work time. See Regulations 29 CFR 785.48(b).

Also, many states have penalty clauses regarding hour and wage. If you, as an employer fail to pay overtime or minimum wage, you can be penalized in addition to the back wages owed. In Louisiana for instance, the amount of penalty owed is the same as the back wages owed, so if the employee was owed $2k in back wages, the penalty owed on top of that is another $2k.

Also, keep in mind that if you provide an unpaid lunch (say 30 min) and the hourly employee is not fully relieved of work duties during this 30 minutes, you are in violation of the wage and hour laws. You cannot have them, nor allow them to "watch a machine while they eat lunch", answer the phone or any other work related activity. If they do, it is considered working time and thus is added to the weekly hours worked, which is going to put you in violation of the overtime law. - Which means back wages are at time and a half. + any penalties.

crazygoat said:

Its a wonder anything gets done.

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And you wonder why China is eating your lunch ...

With electronic badge time clocks, it's also used during a fire,
to get a quick head count of who made it out.

All this fairly well answers the question. There are good reasons for a lot of the regulations, but even as an hourly worker, I didn't like them. One time, while I was still on the clock, I was having a hard time with a strain gauge system that was used on the Martin Mariner- remember the jet powered sea plane? I got in early and went to work, simply because I wanted to get the job done. Bad move. What are you doing, trying to suck up to the company? After that I was a good hourly worker and campaigned to get on salary, which I managed shortly after my 21st birthday. I swore never to punch a time clock again and never did.

Bill

Working for a DoD contractor, we have to account for our time pretty accurately. When I was salary, it was to a tenth of an hour. As an hourly, is's supposed to be every time I move from job to job. Charge to the wrong job, and the supervisor can correct it when it's in the same pay period. Beyond that, it has to be done by labor accounting. I've been flagged months after a job for supposed incorrect labor charging, but it has always come down to the accounting people not knowing that we were working that charge due to upper management directive due to extenuating circumstances. Usually goes away when management lets them know it was correct.

In our company, off the books labor is a fireable offense, besides being prohibited by both labor contracts and procurement contracts.

It's important to crush the motivation and drive of the hard working people for a true socialist system to take place. A society where everyone is the same equal level of underachieving mediocre. There's nothing surprising about who and why they're writing this kind of crap into work agreements/regulations/laws.
Just don't be surprised as to why there hasn't been a single project finished on time or under budget in decades.

Free country eh, whatever that means.

So once again we can't have nice things (like the ability to do personal jobs off the clock) because of lawyers and politicians...

SND said:

It's important to crush the motivation and drive of the hard working people for a true socialist system to take place. A society where everyone is the same equal level of underachieving mediocre. There's nothing surprising about who and why they're writing this kind of crap into work agreements/regulations/laws.
Just don't be surprised as to why there hasn't been a single project finished on time or under budget in decades.

Free country eh, whatever that means.

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Actually, there was a large project finished ahead of schedule, the renovation of the stretch of highway 40/64 extending west of St. Louis. It was one of the oldest stretches of divided highway in the state and showed it. MODOT, Missouri Department of Transportation, and whatever private contractors were involved, finished well ahead and did a terrific job. The only objection I had was that I walked home from grade school on the Spoede Road bridge over it. The bridge had a rectangular aluminum rail that made a flat place for evil minded urchins to draw obscene pictures, making great reading for a third grader. When they widened the highway, the bridge had to go. All that great art destroyed.

Re work restrictions, my career goals did not include being #55840 stringing wires in F101s so after one year at McDonnell Aircraft I took a pay cut to go to a smaller outfit where my performance, good or bad, would be noticed. I worked very hard and within a couple of years was in the engineering department and off the clock.

Re making suggestions, I am not saying to not make any, just to tread very lightly. One thing you might consider, your cell phone probably has a timer that you can start and stop. Start it when you go off looking for a fixture and stop it when you get back to your machine, then start it again when you go looking for the next one. That will give the cumulative time you spent looking and you can compare it to the total setup time. Then when you present it to the boss, it will be simple data.

Bill

P. S. In 1968 I had the doubtful privilege of spending 2 weeks in Magdeburg, East Germany. Arnold Wagner, a Swissair pilot who was in the World Aerobatic competition, told a group of East Germans "I fly all over the world and everywhere I see socialism it is bullshit, but here you have perfect socialism. That means you have perfect bullshit."

The East Germans who would speak openly just wanted to know the shortest way to the West.

SND, be happy with what you have. The other side is a lot worse.

Firing seems extreme. Perhaps there were other circumstances.

Opposite side I have been told by HR to fire a person for being one minute late.
So during the exit interview the employee inevitably says "It's not right to lose my job over being only one minute late".
This is the tale of woe I'm sure this person will tell the world.
I have to explain to them that it is not the one minute. It is that they have been late 18 times in the last year and warned each time.

I know the insurance thing, labor/union contracts, Fed and State labor laws but there might be more to the story.
Something smells so very wrong here......

There may be a hint of something in "A co worker reported it and got her fired". This speaks to me more than anything else but does not tell who the bad person is.
Bob

When I was 15 I got a job at a car wash, we started at 7 every morning. Everyone showed up at 7 and sat in the back till the cars showed up and then we clocked in, we would waite hours. They would have us clock out once the cars stopped and go sit in the back till cars showed up. I would work 10 hours a day and usually get paid for 3 maybe 4 hours. I did this all summer. My dad asked what the hell did I spend all my money on since I didnt have any, I explained how it worked and that I was there 50 hours but only got paid for 12. He lost his freakin mind, He called the police and the labor board and the newspaper. By the next morning the place was a circus and the labor people had shut the place down. They sued on our behalf and we all got back pay and overtime and damages. The place closed and was open again doing the same crap but new owners who were controlled by the old owners. They still do the same thing today as they did 30 years ago but with undocumented immigrants and african immigrants.

PlasmaOnTheBrain said:

So once again we can't have nice things (like the ability to do personal jobs off the clock) because of lawyers and politicians...

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I think it was the idiots that bled and broke things that caused the lawyers to get involved


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Last month one of the shipping clerks got fired for coming in early and working off the clock.That was the first time I had herd of that.

The company used to be flexible about hours concerning Dr appts & such;come in early to get off early for a late appt;come in late-work late,so long as you worked 40 hrs.

Now the new hr dept had tightened up and stopped that so I had to request time off and take took vacation hrs.

The new supervisor now says he can reschedule me to come in early/late when needed so no need to burn up vacation time.Back to square one!