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Wayne Takishita

Plastic
Joined
Apr 30, 2002
Location
Kaneone, HI
I plan on buying a lathe and mill to do my own rebarreling and chambering for rifles. Here in Hawaii we have no one really good that does it. I have hade 2 rifles built and rebarreled from people on the mainland. They both took over a year. My current rifle rebuild is going on 2 years. Every few months when I call the same answer, "A few more weeks" The person is one of the top in the USA that I read about in Precision Shooting Magazine. The frustration of waiting, and waiting, makes me want to do it myself, also I get many ideas that i dont see anybody else doing. So I ordered any and everything I could find about rebarreling, and rechambering. I will teach myself as much as possible. I talked to another famous riflesmith that said he would teach me, so I plan to visit him next year. There seems 2 school of thoughts on types of machines. The small on and big one. Some people I talk to say a 10 inch Southbend is good enough and the best for gunsmithing, while others say the bigger and heavier ones 14-18 inch ones are more accurate and better. Also the small mill/drills versus the 9X42 and larger mills. Milling stocks, Sako extractors, scope mounts, etc.. Anyway I would like to hear what everybody else uses, and things they like and dont like, and also what they would wish for in a new machine they would buy. Thanks for the info.
 
Welcome to the fraternity!

Some amazing work has been done on mill drills, but in reading between the lines, those guys wish they had full sized machines. MillDrills really push the limit in gunsmithing. Get a Bridgeport type if you can.

Lathes: You definetely want something you can use 5C collets in. This means a 1 3/8" spindle bore, like a 11" Rockwell or a Southbend Heavy 10 I understand. But, one of the best smiths in Alaska used a 24" lathe with a small spindle bore for years before he upgraded.

Websites:

Shooters.com has a good smith section.

If you are into AR or 1911 Building, look at www.roderucustom.tzo.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi. These guys are builders, not talkers.

Another good builders site is on AR15.com
 
Big! A 10" SB is big enough - offhand I can't think of anything that wouldn't work there. I would stay away from any Mill you can't tram. I've seen some folks shim a Mill Drill square, but I'd really want to be able to dial it in. (Also lets you dial it 'out' for slide serrations, bevels (mag funnels), etc. (most of the 'out of square' operations I can think of are for pistols, however.) The service by the big-name guys is pretty pathetic - even if they're that backed up you think they could give an accurate estimate, but I bet they told you 6 months... (Seems like a service-oriented competitor could make some real inroads...)
Good luck!
 
I agree that for gunsmithing work the 10" south bend is a very good choice if you can find one. Any quality machine 10-16 inches will suffice. Just remember when you choose a machine you can do small work in a big lathe, but you cannot do big work in a small lathe. Sooner or later you will want to turn something larger than just gun barrels.
 
I build barrels with a 10"x36" import of some years ago. A consensus is that the 3-in-1 machines are NOT suitable. Quality of low price import lathes vary greatly. Used lathes are likely worn if very old. An excellant need would be an adjustable 3-jaw chuck. Buck and Bison are two brands who sell them. For barrel work, a steady rest is almost a necessity. Tooling and gages can get expensive quickly. A Brownell's gunsmith catalog is a first necessity. But "boy" is it ever satisfying to finish a barrel.
 
JMScott;

where in Texas are you? i live outside of Palestine.

i also build custom muzzle loaders. target guns mostly, and i agree with you about satisfying.

but it is even more so to put 'em in the x ring every time with something you built.

building a 'dueling pistol' at the moment. smoothbore .45. new deal for me. but you kind of do what the guy who pays wants.

i like the idea of a 'gunsmithing' section here. maybe those of us who do that can do a little more exchanging of ideas, etc.

happy weekend.
bill
 
I use an import 12X36 lathe, and a B'port for home gunsmithing. You really only need the lathe to start. Learn it while keeping an eye out for a mill.
I chamber through the headstock, and run indicators every step of the operation. You, with patience and perserverence, can do amazing work at home. Get the first Brownell's kinks, it has a chambering section by Fred Huntington, The Gunsmith Machinist by Steve Acker, and visit Dan Lilja's home page. There are several ways to set up for chambering. Pick one that will work well for you, and learn it well.
The folks on benchrest.com, will gladly help you out. Feel free to email me if you have the need. Mike
 
Post deleted

[This message has been edited by John Ricks (edited 10-15-2002).]
 
Get the largest lathe you can afford and you won't go wrong. I use a 10" Atlas and can do all I need to. But I covet my buddies Logan. I don't know the exact size but it is about 6 feet long and 4 1/2 feet tall at the headstock. The 4 jaw is HUGE.

A larger lathe can still do small work but the converse is not true. Also the more mass the lathe has the more rigid and stable it will be.
 
Here is what I've posted on a gun board in response to a question about getting into barrel fitting. For what it's worth.

There are those who have been and will be successful by figuring it out on their own. Or maybe spending a little time observing someone else do it, or watching a video, or reading a magazine article. They are to be congratulated on their innate capabilities. However, most of us need a little help to learn and understand something technical in any useful depth. What one learns in an instructor-led course goes beyond barrel fitting. Usually there will be some time devoted to milling machines, grinders, and other machine tools. One may not own these tools to begin with, but knowing the different ways to remove metal is helpful. Shop math, characteristics of materials, heat treating, and cutting tool geometry are also covered at a very basic level even in the first or second semester. There are also the gunsmithing courses at some community colleges that should not be overlooked.

As to the selection of a minimum size lathe - I think many would say 13" X 40". While there are many lathes of that size, and some even smaller, being successfully used to do barrel fitting, they are less capable than I want to deal with. My current machine is a 15" X 50" Clausing-Colchester. The one before that was a 17" X 60" Voest. Like everything else there are trade-offs. If you want to chamber in the headstock, you need a spindle bore that will accommodate the barrel blank. Smaller lathes will likely have too small a spindle bore. Larger lathes may have a spindle that is too long to allow convenient support of the blank at both ends. Most 13" and 14" newer lathes will have a spindle bore of adequate diameter without being too long.

The advantage of a larger machine is its rigidity and ability to remove metal faster while holding tolerances and producing a high-quality surface finish. Even when taking light cuts on smaller machines, good finishes are hard to reliably obtain with carbide tooling. If one wants to use small-machine-friendly high-speed-steel (HSS) tooling, that emphasizes even more the need for basic machining skills (tool grinding in this case) which are more easily acquired through training than trial and error. Also, larger manual (non-CNC) machines are in many cases cheaper on the used market than smaller hobby machines. Those reading this thread are interested in gunsmithing but there is a very large number of people with many other interests out there looking to buy small machines for their various projects. That has driven up the price of used small machines and created a void that is being filled by low-cost Asian imports.

Both used domestic and new imports can be a slippery slope. Used domestic machines are likely to be old and often will have been used, abused, and worn out. New, low-cost imports are occasionally not assembled or adjusted properly and may have serious defects. In both cases the shortcomings might be repaired or worked around by an accomplished machinist.

Regarding new, low-cost imports - parts are usually available if the machine is currently being marketed. Their customer service is usually good and most of them are willing to send free replacement parts during the warranty period. Basically you do their quality control in your shop. That said, there are high-end Asian imports that are well regarded and much sought after. Mori-Seiki (Japan) for example, made some of the best manual machines available from any source.

Parts and accessories for domestic machines can be a formidable challenge in terms of price and availability. This is also true of British and European machines.

What does one do? Ask yourself - "Do I want to be in the machine tool quality control / repair business or do I want to be in the barrel fitting business?" Assuming it is the latter, then consider the following:

1. Patience. Search and research. Read. Go to school. Monitor this and other machining boards. You'll pick up more there about metal removal than the gun oriented boards. Subscribe to Machinist's Workshop and Home Shop Machinist.

2. Make sure you get all of the machine-specific items you'll need in the initial purchase. Never assume that you will be able to find accessories that are unique to a machine after the purchase. Besides, accessories are almost always cheaper when part of a package. Even if you get all the machine-unique accessories in the initial deal be prepared for tooling purchases. Items like chucks, live centers, tool posts, tool holders, etc. are not cheap if they are of good quality. I recently purchased a Buck, 6 jaw, Adjust-Tru chuck that cost more than some people are willing to pay for the lathe itself.

3. Get ready to spend money. Even the best of deals are likely to cost more than you thought probable. This is not a place to go cheap thinking that with a little fixing up, that baby will be a sweet machine. "A little fixing up" on a machine tool can quickly exceed the price of a comparable one in excellent condition. This is where patience comes in. Look, look, look, and look some more. Hold out for a good machine whether it is a good new one or a good used one. I spent nearly four years looking for my second lathe (the Voest). Even at that, a better machine became available recently and I bought it. My very first lathe was a little Logan 10" and it was not suitable for barrel work. I sold it and it waited 12 years for the space and wherewithal to start shopping for a proper machine. Monitor e-Bay. I'm not suggesting that anyone buy a machine sight-unseen. But you will get an idea of what is out there and what prices they are commanding. Look around used machine tool dealers, but be very, very careful. Many of these guys are like the stereotypical used car salesman.

If you are actually in business, then you need the capital to buy the right stuff and you cannot wait for the deal of a lifetime. That's another matter. You'll just have to do a cost/benefit analysis like you would for any other major purchase and go from there. But educate yourself on the true costs and the true benefits. It's easy to get caught up in the shopping for a neat machine. If you are going to do it right it is serious money. Make your choices wisely.

Remember a couple of cliches: CHEAP, FAST, GOOD - pick any two. And, if you want it bad you'll get it bad.
 
So John, how long have those 500 Jeffrey parts been in the shop
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To the question at hand, quality is more important than size, provided the machine is large enough to do the work at hand. Of the current imports, the 12X36 machines are the smallest to be suitable for general barrel fitting, and a 13X40 or 14X40 may just be better suited.

Be aware that you will spend at least as much, if not more on tooling then you will on the machine, especially true for mills!
 
I just got my Gunsmith Machinist by Steve Acker from Brownells. Also bought his gunsmith video series. Alot of very useful information. Answers alot of questions I had, like how to make a spider for the back of the headstock, rechambering, and blue-printing. I would highly recommend it.
 
Great book! Videos were pretty good too. If you plan to make a cat head (spider) for the back of your lathe, make sure you can reach the rear of the spindle, and that it's not too deep. On some gear drive machines a typical barrell wouldn't reach the back of the headstock if enough of it protruded from the front to do any useful work. (There are, of course, ways to work around this...)
 
My first machine was a 12x36 import. I had to do a lot of work to it before I could even turn out anything. I had to make a better stand made from heavy steel to keep flex and chatter down. I had to rework the tail stock so that I could center it. I also had to make several other small parts. I have a 16x60 Victor that I really like. I bought it used. They told me the ways at the end were wore ½ a thou. This was ok since I never machine anything that long.
 
Wayne, I use a 14x48 Clausing. I had to build a cathead for both ends to chamber in the headstock. I will not get into the argument on which is the best method. Go to benchrest.com and then gunsmiths. You will find that Mike Bryant will tell you more about chambering than anybody. He is a very careful and honest gunsmith. As you know I sell barrels across the USA , Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. I deal with some of the best smiths in the world.I will guarantee the best ones will turn you a complete gun around in 6 months after they have the components in hand. They're a few name smiths that use a lot of smoke and mirrors because they think their art is mysterious and keep your equip. for ever. Now if it takes a long time to get your components your gun will be delayed. I had a so called famous smith that had my action, trigger, and barrel for 2 1/2 years for various excuses about waiting on a stock. I got my stuff back with a partially completed barrel job and a sorry stock that can't fit my action. He is the exception. Butch
 








 
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