The ultimate "Bridgeport style" Cincinnati

Milacron · Dec 10, 2006

I should think, is in the photo below-

Darned if I can remember what it's called....final incarnation of the Toolmaster perhaps ? I haven't seen one of these at auction in years, so just curious if anyone here has a feel for how many of this later version were made ?

Design looks suspiciously like a TOS...or maybe TOS got the idea from Cincinnati ?

Plus you Heavy Iron guys seem to have nothing to talk about here lately, so this will keep your fingers lubed up.

donie · Dec 10, 2006

I have used one of these before, I believe it was made in Europe

Milacron · Dec 10, 2006

CB, only your bottom photo is a turret mill, and ironically, it appears to be the TOS I was thinking about...although that one's a little different from the one I was familiar with.

CBlair · Dec 10, 2006

Yes Don, however they all have the same basic range of motion as a bridgeport mill and are similar in capacity, although heavier. They are all European manufacture, WMW, TOS, FNK. The arangement of the controls and the shape of the turret on your photo does look more like a TOS than the Cinn. models.

What do you think of the young man's creation?

And by the way I still think the DoAll that you had are quite nice machines in there own right. Just not what I would consider ultimate.

Charles

Milacron · Dec 10, 2006

CB, ok, but the point of this topic was to discuss the final generation Cincinnati Toolmaster's as possibly being the ultimate turret style mill from Cincinnati.....I was not looking for input on what is the ultimate turret mill in general. This is after all the USA Heavy Iron forum...not the Euro Heavy Iron forum

jkilroy · Dec 10, 2006

That Cinci/TOS is a stout machine and quite likely the top of the line for the brand/style. Lagun continues to sell a similar machine in spec, 7.5hp, 40 taper, big table, power on all axis, etc.

http://www.lagun.com/products/vertical-mills/ftv-510-sp.html

Mebfab · Dec 10, 2006

Wasnt that Cinn a rebadged french machine? I have only seen one at auction. About 7 years ago CIA sold a vinyl window plant, it was in it.

Also 2 disassembled bridgeports fresh from rebuild (or partial rebuild) The dolts sold them as a lot as they walked across the plant to them.Some guy bought them for like $200, the rest of the crowd was waiting by the machines. Boy were they pissed.

donie · Dec 10, 2006

It seems the machine was made in France. The T&C grinder with the same style handles certainly was.

mister honey · Dec 11, 2006

Cincinnati Milacron had a facility near Chomienne, France that built this final version of the Toolmaster.

I have a flyer dated 12/72 introducing this "new" Cincinnati Toolmaster.

Mike

Milacron · Dec 11, 2006

Mike- Last night I found the same brochure in my files, but see no mention of "France" anywhere....course that's not unusual to not mention country of origin.

But the big question is, was this Toolmaster version designed by someone at Cincinnati and unique to Cincinnati production wise, or was it a rebadged mill sold as something else in other countries ?

Sheesh, what we need here is some alumni from Cincinnati Milacron and K&T here...like in the W&S forum....where are those guys...somewhere in Florida pushing shuffleboard sticks ??

jkilroy · Dec 11, 2006

Probably most are in Florida pushing daiseys.

mister honey · Dec 12, 2006

Don, your question made me consider things and now I'm not sure of my source for the Chomeinne Toolmaster manufacturing location! I tend to think that info was related to me by a Cincinnati Milacron employee.

The original Toolmasters were built in the Cincinnati Lathe & Tool Co. facility in Wilmington, Ohio. That plant was opened in 1951 by Cincinnati Milling Machine Co. for their CL&T division.

By 1972, the Wilmington plant was quite busy building Cintimatics and had by then become (I think) the Cincinnati Milacron Turning Division. No room nor capacity for the lower margin Toolmasters!

Mike

Milacron · Dec 12, 2006

Looked in my copy of the book, 1884-1984 Cincinnati Milacron (218 pages...did you guys know about this book ?) and the only mention of the French thing is

"operations were also established in France and Germany. In 1959, the Mill (nickname for Cincinnati) acquired a small machine tool maker in Lyons, France and formed Cincinnati-Chomienne S.A. In 1967 the company built a new plant in nearby Ville-franch-sur-Saone"

Then it goes into the German acquisition..which was more grinding machine related. Never does say exactly what was made in France.

Milacron · Dec 12, 2006

Probably most are in Florida pushing daiseys.

Maybe, but the new Toolmaster was apparently introduced in 1972, so there could be ex Cincinnati employees who were working there in their early 20's at the time, only in their mid 50's now...still working at whatever is left of Cincinnati now, or elsewhere.

howard d · Dec 13, 2006

I have one. It's a Cincinatti Toolmaster made in Villefranche, France (1973). USA Cincinatti does not support parts for it, but did have manuals. I've seen other Toolmasters made in the USA, and the head was more rounded, looking more like a BP. These are really stout machines - mine weights about 3500 lb. If I could find another, I would get rid of my BP.

Milacron · Dec 13, 2006

HD, very cool...confirmation of the French manuf at last ! Where and when did you buy it...at auction, or ?

I'm still curious if this was a French designed machine sold under names in Europe other than Cincinnati, or excusive to Cincinnati and something they themselves conjured up ?

Re parts, Cincinnati has always been a "moot point" in the parts area anyway. Even back in the mid 1980's when I would call about parts for a 1960's machine, it was usually just for "hope against hope" entertainment purposes, as their prices for something like a simple handwheel would be more than the whole machine was worth !

I wonder if that was part of their downfall, as folks gradually figured this out they became afraid to buy new Cincinnati equipment due to fear of insane parts prices down the line ? Still, Mazak parts are pretty insane too and they are doing ok.

donie · Dec 13, 2006

More or less like a series 2 Bridgeport. It is heavier than the series 1.
I cant say its better than the heavy BP, I thought it was a good machine.
They do seem to be scarce in the market.

Milacron · Dec 13, 2006

My memory (and the photo seems to confirm this) is of it being about the same size as the DoAll (Anayk really..made in Spain) turret mills with no. 40 spindle. Which is, about halfway between a Bridgeport Series I and Series II.

The BP II is really a bit too tall at the head and the head is simply too heavy to be inspired to actually tilt the thing. The DoAll's and this Toolmaster have heads only slighly larger than a BP I, thus making tilt more reasonable.

howard d · Dec 13, 2006

D.T. Bought it about 5 yrs ago, from a local machinery dealer - he had taken it in on trade. I have always assumed it to be American design because a friend has a CinciVersal (almost identical head, but with horizontal milling capability built added). I believe it was USA made. Parts are unbelievable. A 4" riser block was $3700 (made my own), a brass shifting fork (for back gears) $1700 (also made it) - all special order from France with a 4 to 16 week lead time.

Milacron · Dec 13, 2006

These are really stout machines - mine weights about 3500 lb.

I just looked at the brochure again, and the net weight is actually 2,869 lbs.

Seeing as how a Bridgeport Series II weighs 5,220 lbs, that pretty much drives the final nail in the coffin of donie's direct comparison statement.

The ultimate "Bridgeport style" Cincinnati

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