Antique Monarch 22 x 41

Jack CC · May 21, 2009

Greetings all. This is my first post though I have been reading here for a few months. Lots to learn here for sure and thanks to all for advise etc. I found an old Monarch that I am interested in (pre 1929) that is under power w/ single phase 240 v. I am going to look at it soon, but my quesion is this; Any advise on what this old girl may be worth. Comes with 4 jaw chuck, taper attachment, live center, lantern tool post and 3 or 4 tool holders.
Also is it possible to adapt this machine to turn metric threads.

Well it won't let me attach a pic.

jlegge · May 21, 2009

Check this lathe closer. See if it is a helical geared head (good) or spur gear head (not as good). What spindle nose does it have?

My guess you are looking at a early spur geared head with threaded spindle nose, un-harden ways, and 'star' knob apron, which dates the machine before 1924. Most likely a model D.

If you are okay with this then it should drive the value of the machine down, be aware of the limitations a machine of this age will have.

But from a coolness factor it pretty up there!

Look for serial or lot number on the tailstock end of the bed, and any other identifiable name plates.

As for it able to turn metric threads, this is possible if you has the correct end gear combination, but finding these gears could be difficult to impossible.

Greg Menke · May 21, 2009

The headstock on this lathe is a 12 speed American Tool Works High Duty, not Monarch. OTOH the bed, saddle & tailstock are not ATW. Perhaps its a frankenlathe?

Headstock seems to be bronze bushing, probably threaded spindle- though they were also sold with L noses and later on, camlocks. Top speed is approx 400 rpm. Headstock could have a couple helical gears in it if recent enough (1930's or later), but will mostly be spur. The headstock is not mated directly to the ways as it would be normally, there appears to be some kind of adapter riser in place. I suspect the gear ratios from the spindle to the gearbox are incorrect- or at least of somewhat inaccurate.

Take care, if this lathe is assembled from various machines there might be significant damage and/or issues.

Regards,

Greg

Jack CC · May 21, 2009

Thanks for the replies. I have a couple more photos. The owner told he is not sure about the spindle type. I had no idea it might be a cross breed. Appreciate the heads up.

Jack CC · May 21, 2009

Here's a couple more pics.

Greg Menke · May 21, 2009

The new pics help. This is a pressure-lubricated headstock, very likely has a helical bull gear assy but the other gears inside will be spur. I believe this is likely a steel-on-iron setup as the bronze bearing shells are not prominent, which increases the max rpm considerably- maybe to 500-600 rpm. The placards on the front of the headstock will show the range. I would also check the leadscrew and feed rod for a proper gear ratio down from the spindle- that big gear looks weird there, not bad for feeding but if it produces the wrong ratio down to the gearbox you won't be able to cut proper threads.

Its worth figuring out what kind of spindle is on this machine. The threaded spindles were proprietary to ATW- not difficult to make, just nothing you could get off the shelf, so any other spindle tooling will require a DIY backplate or adaptor.

Its kind of hard to value a machine like this- it could be anything from a barely operating mess to excellent.

Greg

Jack CC · May 21, 2009

Thanks Greg

Greg Menke · May 21, 2009

FWIW, the insides of the headstock should look something like this;

You can see the helical bull gear in this one

Greg

Finegrain · May 21, 2009

Jack CC said:
Also is it possible to adapt this machine to turn metric threads.

jlegge said:
As for it able to turn metric threads, this is possible if you has the correct end gear combination, but finding these gears could be difficult to impossible.

It's true enough that finding the right gears is probably impossible. Making them, OTOH, is feasible. I'll assume the end gears on this lathe are 14.5* PA, and maybe 12 DP. The perfectly correct gear that's needed is a 127-tooth gear. Together with a 100, 50, or 25, plus a handful of other add'l gears, you can cut the common metric threads. Now, a 127-tooth gear at 12 DP is over 10" OD, not exactly a cheap bit of kit. You can approximate the 1.27 ratio with a 47 tooth and 37 tooth gear pair. These are much easier to source.

If the pressure angle isn't 14.5* or 20*, then the difficulty factor goes way up. You might could still use add-on 14.5* PA gears, but will have to rig a little ancillary gear train.

Regards.

Finegrain

johnoder · May 21, 2009

But first you would have to know all about how the Monarch QC likes the ATW head stock. If the Monarch gear train has been duplicated from spindle gear down, and including number of teeth on spindle gear, well no problem. If otherwise there will be some ciphering involved to even get it to be willing to cut plain old US threads.

John Oder

Jack CC · May 21, 2009

Geez ....if it has to modified even more it may well be above my pay grade. Especially on top of the asking price. Accurate thread cutting would be a priority even if only an occasional event.

johnoder · May 21, 2009

Relatively easy to see where it is in that department if you have a magnetic base dial indicator.

Put QC in something straight forward such as 10 threads per inch.

Engage half nuts - make sure they closed up around lead screw.

Hand turn spindle several revolutions to get lost motion out and in the process bring the mag base DTI up to a nice zero and STOP. (have the mag base stuck on the way and the tip of the DTI against the saddle wing)

Now turn the spindle EXACTLY one turn.

If you had the QC set for 10 TPI and the carriage did not move exactly .100", there is a problem to be taken care of.

John Oder

Jack CC · May 21, 2009

I understand just what you are saying John. Great advice.
Also, Greg are you suggesting taking the side cover off as an inspection. That makes sense even though I wasn't planning to since it was under power.

Greg Menke · May 21, 2009

Not suggesting taking the covers off, but definitely put the headstock in each gear and see how things sound. I had the pics handy, showing the kind of stuff inside that vintage headstock.

Regards,

Greg

Jack CC · May 21, 2009

Anyway I have talked to the guy selling it and he seems like a nice enough fellow. Says he has some health issues. He's asking $1000 for it. I want to get a feel for the range it might be in but had no idea about it being two lathes. I'm not sure he does either as he has had it for only 5 yrs. Came from a sawmill operation I think.

Greg Menke · May 21, 2009

For $1k the geartrain from spindle to gearbox should produce the correct feeds and threads, reasonably little backlash on cross & compound feeds, reasonably low wear on bed ways, spindle axis reasonably parallel to bedways, etc. Meaning it should be in good operating condition and not heavily worn.

Thats premium money for a machine this old and if you'll pardon me, cobbled together. If all the fits are good and wear is low then it might be reasonable, but it'll need measuring and testing to see. But at least its clean, which is a help.

Greg

Jack CC · May 21, 2009

That's why I am here. Lots of valuable advise here and I appreciate it. Thanks.

Jack

Antique Monarch 22 x 41

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