10EE checkup and tuneup, what to do?

Hello all,
Last month at work we got a new but used 10EE.
I sure could use some help and advice on what to check and take care of before putting it into service.

Here's some background on the machine:
Serial number 54218, 12-1994
5hp DC with large cabinet on back
Taper, coolant, DRO, Inch/Metric, electric leadscrew reverse.
Originally sold to Ford Motor Co, we're probably the second owner not counting the machinery dealer.

So far this is what I've done to it:
Shim it level on three points
Clean, clean, and clean.. but not done yet.
Change oil in headstock, DTE light McMaster #2158K14
Change oil in back gear box, DTE medium heavy McMaster #2158K15
Have way oil on hand for apron and tail stock, Vactra #2 McMaster #2158K21
Drain oil in feed gear box. still need to refill with DTE medium heavy
New gaskets for oil level window in feed gear box.
Change all 4 oil seals for levers and knobs on feed gear box, three CR #4985 and 1 CR#9876
Make tool and remove packing from C-D-E thread knob, need to replace it..
Replace nylon gear in inch/metric dials for compound, Monarch # 71357
Replace headstock cover/oil deflector gasket
Flatten the square thread/feed plate and replace gasket
New spindle drive belts Monarch # 68295
New feed belt Monarch # 19890
Replace main transformer mounts McMaster # 9376K16
Rewire from 460 volt to 230 volt, change jumpers for three different transformers, main fuses and coolant pump fuses, coolant overload relay, reconnect/rewire coolant pump for lower voltage
Check "Safety Circuits" following section 5.9 in manual
Drain, shovel out, and wash coolant sump.
Hook up power and test run.

It appears to be a very nice machine, but haven't cut anything with it yet.

On the to do list:
Replace packing for C-D-E thread knob, what should I use here?
Check and clean apron, ensure oil system works. Any tips, instructions, or where to start?
Replace all felt wipers.
Completely disassemble and clean taper attachment, replace several small missing parts at a minimum.
Fix feed gearbox oil leak into coolant sump, possibly leadscrew and or feed rod seals?
Troubleshoot and fix backgear shift lever interlock solenoid

Anything else I should check, adjust, fix, or replace??
Any tips or pointers?

Just got it rewired and running yesterday, can't wait get it done and put it to use.
Thanks,
Grigg

Here are a few pictures,
Grigg

That's a heck of a nice machine. At this point I'd say that you're about ready to fire it up. On the oiling system, I'd just run it and make sure that you can see oil on the ways, if so it's likely OK. For the C-D-E knob I'd use either a teflon packing or the traditional graphited string. The gearbox isn't likely leaking into the sump unless you can see it coming out of the end panel, but there is loss from the apron when oiling the leadscrew that you will see. It's not much, much less than the loss from the ways.

The machine is only 15 years old, not likely to have much wrong on it anyway.

rke[pler said:

The gearbox isn't likely leaking into the sump unless you can see it coming out of the end panel

Click to expand...

To expand a bit on what Russ said, the most frequent path I have seen for oil seeping out thru the weep holes at the bottom of the gearbox is from having the headstock over-full, which allows oil to come out around the FWD/REV shaft, down onto the gearbox, where it drains down onto the base casting, which slopes into the sump.

My 57 wants to drip oil at the back of the headstock, onto the top of the DC panel. Not sure where that is coming from yet, since nothing is over-full.

-Dave

rke[pler said:

For the C-D-E knob I'd use either a teflon packing or the traditional graphited string.
The gearbox isn't likely leaking into the sump unless you can see it coming out of the end panel...

Click to expand...

Is there a preferred packing you can point me toward? I haven't been to the hardware store to look or called Monarch about it yet. Don't see anything that jumps out at me in the McMaster catalog either.
Or is this something I can turn out of a solid piece of Teflon, essentially a bushing that gets compressed by the packing nut? Although if it doesn't work it may be difficult to remove.

The gear box appears to be leaking from the end panel where the three shafts exit, I'm suspecting the seals or at least one of them. Are the shafts difficult to remove so I can get at the seal(s), what all is involved?
For now I'll probably clean it really good, fill the gear box with oil, use the machine for a while, then in a few weeks drain the oil again and go after the leak.
Don't think it's the headstock leaking, that seems OK.
It's not coming from under the gear box, I've removed that little cover, it's dirty under there, but not wet at all.
Dave, I do see the weep hole you mention.

Is there a good service manual for a 10EE?
I can figure most of it out as I get to it, but reading ahead and having an idea of what to expect makes things go smoother and faster. At least I can be more confident and tend to work faster when I know what's going on.
The Monarch manual is disappointing when it comes to mechanical repairs or how to get stuff apart. Even the parts manual doesn't give part names, well not many of them, which could be helpful.
On the other hand, the electrical part of the manual is excellent and very thick. I don't understand all of it, but a real electrical guy should have no problems following how and why it all works, what I can get my head wrapped around is quite interesting. The engineers that figured it out really knew what they were doing, or they sure know how to write about it and pretend they did...

Grigg

That's a very nice looking lathe and I/M to boot! I like your approach, make a list and get after it. It's a good one also.

Sadly there's no mechanical shop or repair manual for these lathes. The best source of information I've found is this forum. The search function can be very useful to find posts pertaining to specific areas. There are plenty of helpful folks here with a deep depth of knowledge of the inner working of these lathes too.

For the gearbox packing gland I left the original packing in the gland to avoid scratching the shaft trying to dig the old packing out. Added two wraps of 1/16" graphited fiber and it was good to go. Teflon gland packing would work as well. Any good hardware store should have something suitable in the plumbing department. They'll call it valve stem packing.

The right hand gearbox cover has bolts which penetrate the gearcase and 1 or more (never had an I/M apart) and are under the standing oil level. On my machine there was no thread sealant on those or any other bolts or screws which penetrate the gearcase and the ones under the standing oil level leaked whether the lathe was used or not.

The main culprit can't be accessed without pulling the gearbox. It's the bottom rear one hidden when the gearbox is installed.

The leadscrew and feed rod use simple labyrinth seals, they probably are not the main leak source. The lower ELSR shaft does not penetrate into the gearcase, it can't leak and is a simple bronze bushing in the boss on the cover.

Don't forget to use sealant on the sightglass screws. The two lower ones are under the standing oil level.

I've attached a photo of the bottom of an inch only gearbox. There's a vertically oriented 3/8-16 setscrew indentified which will benefit from adding a short setscrew with sealant to prevent leaks there. Don't know if a similar setscrew is in your gearbox.

Dave mentioned possible leaks from the headstock FWD/REV shaft. It's good yours is OK but for those with leaks there it has a packing gland which may need tightening or adding more packing.

Your plan is good. Put it into service and you'll learn much more about it.

Grigg said:

Is there a preferred packing you can point me toward? I haven't been to the hardware store to look or called Monarch about it yet. Don't see anything that jumps out at me in the McMaster catalog either.
Or is this something I can turn out of a solid piece of Teflon, essentially a bushing that gets compressed by the packing nut? Although if it doesn't work it may be difficult to remove.

Click to expand...

Something like McMaster 9441K1 should be fine. I don't think I'd use solid PTFE

The gear box appears to be leaking from the end panel where the three shafts exit, I'm suspecting the seals or at least one of them. Are the shafts difficult to remove so I can get at the seal(s), what all is involved?

Click to expand...

The leadscrew and feed rod come out pretty easily, taper pins on the gearbox end. You might be able to get away with simply pulling the pins then pulling the locating pins from the ELSR housing they pass into at the tail of the lathe, then the SHCS and pulling the ELSR housing out and down the bed. There are wires passing into it, so you want to be careful (or pull them beforehand after marking them), That should let the rods get clear of the gearbox end. I suspect that you still won't be able to reach the rear SHCS holding the end on the gearbox. If not you'll have to pull the end gearing connecting the gearbox and the headstock, pull the main sheave off the spindle and some of the belt idlers, then take the top off the gearbox (the 1/4 round facing the operator) and slide the gearbox out until you can reach the SHCS (at that point you may as well pull it out completely to make replacing the gasket easy).

For now I'll probably clean it really good, fill the gear box with oil, use the machine for a while, then in a few weeks drain the oil again and go after the leak.

Click to expand...

That's probably best.

Don't think it's the headstock leaking, that seems OK.

Click to expand...

Well, really, most have some leakage from the headstock, but you won't have the bigger problem that the older models have where the front and rear bearing housings leak into the main sump that then overfills and drains into the coolant sump.

Is there a good service manual for a 10EE?

Click to expand...

Not that I know of. I heard that Boeing might have one they did in-house, but I was never able to find anything. I got one from the Army rebuilders, but it wasn't anything other than the operator's manual with parts sheets and lube manual.

Thanks for all the info and help,

Lowe's has both graphite and Teflon valve packing, the Teflon is Danco # 80794 looks like it will work well.

Should be able to use the lathe today. I'll keep an eye on the last few leaks, try to figure out where they are, and plan to fix them in a few weeks.

Thanks again,
Grigg

Wow - that EE was in Ford's engine R&D shop. It was one of 4 that they had, all about the same age. Can't believe they got rid of it already.

Their loss your gain.

John

Grigg said:

...
On the to do list:
...Check and clean apron, ensure oil system works. Any tips, instructions, or where to start?
Replace all felt wipers.
Completely disassemble and clean taper attachment, replace several small missing parts at a minimum.
...
Grigg

Click to expand...

(I'm a round-dial guy, so I can't be of too much help, but here goes on the things that are more-or-less common.)

You can verify that the carriage lube system is working without pulling the carriage, but you can't really check the pumped lube system inside the apron without either pulling the carriage or dropping the apron. Since you are planning to disassemble the taper attachment, you will be half way towards being able to pull the carriage. (If I were you I would pull the carriage and the apron and clean/inspect everything--I don't mean pull the apron apart, just inspect from top and bottom).

While you have the cross-feed screw out and the cross-feed dial off you can check the carriage lube system by engaging the cross-feed and running the machine with feeds engaged. There is a cam on the cross-feed shaft in the apron that runs the pump (round-dials don't have this feature). Look for oil at 5 points: front and back carriage ways (the oil ports are in the middle); left and right side of the cross feed slide (again in the middle); and finally oil should be coming out of the lube hole in front of the apron where the cross-feed dial mounts (it's at about 10 O'clock on a round-dial). You may also want to check the pressure at the manifold under the carriage; it should be 10 to 15psi, IIRC. There is a 5/16" plug on the manifold where you can attach the pressure gauge.

There are bearings on the right end of the feed-rod and lead-screw that you may wish to lube. (Round-dials also have a thrust bearing on the left end of the lead-screw.) There is a sump where the worm-gear for the feed-rod sits. Not sure about this for a square-dial, but on round-dials it can fill up with swarf. Mine has a drain plug. The apron lube system drips oil onto the worm; any excess drips into the chip pan. I haven't found any information one way or the other on this, but I fill my worm-gear sump with way oil and drain/fill when I change the apron oil.

You may want to pull the bottom cover from the apron and check the filter on the pump.

You may want to pull the compound apart and clean/lube the screw, nut and ways. Scott at Monarch told me that this should be done at least once a year since there is no other way to lube them. The same applies to the taper attachment.

Cal

Looks like a change with the motor gearbox casting and the material used in the belt idlers and right hand idler arm on that later model EE.

Well, it runs reasonably well, but not quite right yet.
At about 1,000 rpm it starts to make noise. Traced that back to the rear drive belt idler/tensioner pulley.
Moved it out of the way and tried for more RPM.
At about 1,500 rpm the other pulley starts to vibrate and howl.

Both pulleys turn smooth and free without any detectable slop.
What's a likely cause? Over greased, worn out of balance aluminum pulley, or just worn bearings?

First job is a small 3/4" diameter stainless part, and the machine tends to chatter more readily than I would expect. Small cuts of 10-15 thousandths work well with an excellent finish, but much more and it chatters some, not excessively, but more than I would expect.
Just pausing with the tool in the corner of a shoulder not cutting invites chatter almost immediately even with 1/64" TNR. I'm used to running bigger machines, but I've also run a bunch of small lesser quality machines that do somewhat better thus far, not sure if I should adjust my expectations or what to look for to fix the perceived problem?
Everything I can think of right off seems OK, can't detect any end play in the spindle bearings using an indicator. The Aloris tool post, compound, and carriage seem snug and sturdy, even used the same tool (corrected for proper center height) that I use on both an older Clausing and a well worn SB, neither chatter quite so easily.

Apron and carriage seems to oil it's self. Still want to dig into it later for a good cleaning and and check it out a little better. I've been reading past threads, but don't have a good picture of how to start and what to expect yet.

I'm still convinced it's an excellent machine, just need to work out a few more bugs and get use to it. That and figure out the Acu-Rite Turnvision DRO, it seems lots more complicated than the Newall DRO's I'm familiar with.

Grigg

jlegge said:

Wow - that EE was in Ford's engine R&D shop. It was one of 4 that they had, all about the same age. Can't believe they got rid of it already.

Their loss your gain.

John

Click to expand...

What other lathes did they have?
This one came with a cabinet full of tools including two steady rest that aren't for the Monarch.
If I knew what they fit it'd be easier to trade them for more useful tooling, like a Colet nose or chuck setup.

Grigg

Those idle pulley bearings are what I would call self destroying because of the speeds they endure, just replace them.
Since you are used to more powerful machines, be aware of overloading the drive past its ability to maintain set speeds.
Chatter can come from chucks with poor jaw/work contact, also, I have been told later machines may have plain instead of ball spindle bearings. Monarch told me some years ago there is a manual for adjustment of that type for extra$.
I simply do not have info regarding that or seen any related post here on that. You appear to have one of the latest EEs on this board.

donie said:

Those idle pulley bearings are what I would call self destroying because of the speeds they endure, just replace them.
Since you are used to more powerful machines, be aware of overloading the drive past its ability to maintain set speeds.
Chatter can come from chucks with poor jaw/work contact, also, I have been told later machines may have plain instead of ball spindle bearings. Monarch told me some years ago there is a manual for adjustment of that type for extra$.
I simply do not have info regarding that or seen any related post here on that. You appear to have one of the latest EEs on this board.

Click to expand...

That was my first guess on the idlers, I'll order a new set of bearings. Did call NAPA, they list them for about $33 each but they are unavailable even from the factory. I'll call Monarch tomorrow.

I first suspected the chuck and promptly swapped it for a like new Pratt Burnard that came with the machine, that was part of the problem but not all of it.

I'll ask Steve about the spindle bearings or bushings when I call.
The sales literature for a brand new today 10EE does mention that "While it is being ground the spindle is supported in plain bearings precision matched to to those journals" . In another section they say "Anti-friction bearings used in all critical areas."
From that I'd say that now they use ball bearings, but it is somewhat confusing.

Grigg

"I have been told later machines may have plain instead of ball spindle bearings."

A 10EE with a plain bearing spindle? Really? Call me skeptical. I can believe the part about grinding the spindle nose while using the bearing seats as temporary journals, but not plain bearings once the spindle is installed in a lathe.

I find it confusing on the spindle bearing issue also. What brought my attention to that was, I was looking at a later 90s machine that a dealer had. I called Monarch about info on it, the nice lady said the manual and other info was $75 and the spindle manual was somewhat over $100. She said that machine had a plain bearing spindle.
That said, I dont know any more as these later lathes are showing up more now. The price of the 90s machine I was considering 6 years ago was sold at $35,000.

Inexpensive good Japanese idler bearings are covered in this sticky post from the upper part of this forum:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php/cheap-bearings-belt-idlers-165505.html

I bought a set and am quite pleased with them.

Are the cross slide and compound tapered gibs adjusted properly? Camlocks properly clocked when tightened? If not they can cause chatter problems.

There is a Zerk fitting on the ELSR assembly on the bottom of the apron. It is the only source of lubrication for that assembly.

Have fun getting to know her.

Grigg said:

What other lathes did they have?
This one came with a cabinet full of tools including two steady rest that aren't for the Monarch.
If I knew what they fit it'd be easier to trade them for more useful tooling, like a Colet nose or chuck setup.

Grigg

Click to expand...

They had four EE purcashed all about the same time, and two Series 614. They spent a lot of money in the early 80's up grading their tool room. Do not know what other makes of machines they had. I you are doing the right thing going over it closely to make sur ethere isn't anything really bad that caused them to sell off this lathe. Most likely they were just down sizing, but better safe.

John

Been running the machine for a few days now, looking better and better. The chatter problems I had first off were mostly the material, I thought it was 303 SS, but turned out to be something much tougher. Other materials including 316 SS turns very nicely.

Still have some leaks on the right end of the feed gear box, not ready to go after those yet.
Apron has a bunch of leaks and over all needs a good cleaning, planning to mostly disassemble it and the taper attachment before to long.
Need to replace the gaskets on the other two oil sight windows, now that it has oil they leak too.

Grigg