Very Interesting Round-Dial 10EE -- EE27264

FinishCut already alerted us to this machine, but I thought that it was unusual enough to merit it’s own thread. It was sold by Reliable Tool on eBay for $2500. It’s a VERY interesting machine on several levels. For one thing, it’s the youngest round-dial I’ve seen to date. It was built in July of ’45; the prior record holder was EE26988, built in March of ’45.
MONARCH 12.5" X 20" 10EE TOOL ROOM LATHE | eBay

It also has more options that I’ve seen before:

• Taper attachment
• Accumulating cross-feed dial
• Accumulating carriage feed dial!
• Electric Leadscrew Reverse (ELSR)
• Long cross-feed slide with dovetail
• Tailstock dauber (standard equipment, but most get lost over time)

About the only things that it doesn’t have are the rapid reverse rheostat (very rare) and coolant.

I had forgotten that the accumulating cross-feed dial was even available on round-dials and I didn’t recall seeing an accumulating carriage feed dial “in the wild”. Neither option is listed in the 1944 round-dial brochure. Going back through my photos I did find 8 or 9 other round-dials with an accumulating cross-feed dials. I also found a photo of an accumulating carriage dial, but it was on a square dial.

An interesting note on the ELSR: they normally have a movable handle/stop on the rod to the right of the apron to control the spindle direction. The movable stop on the left side is in place, but without the lever on the right it won’t stop when moving to the right. I hadn’t noticed the knob or button sticking out of the ELSR/feed direction casting (lower left corner) before; I’m not sure what it does. Another thing that I learned today is that ELSR was not an uncommon feature on a round-dial. However, looking at my archive I’m surprised how many are missing one or the other stop.

The machine probably didn’t have a collet closer from the factory. Machines that did had a two-piece cover on the top. It’s also interesting that the hand-wheel collet closer draw tube seems to be sitting in the holders on the rear. So, two different collet closers and no collet nose; no way to use either system without one!

Reliable’s spec are pretty far off: Round-dials can’t cut 184 TPI threads. Round-dials could cut 50 thread pitches from 3 to 92 TPI. And feeds are 0.0010 to 0.0075”. The specs they quote are for a square dial. I’m also skeptical about the MT3 tailstock taper. Another error in the specs is the spindle speed: it has a 4000 RPM tach, so it’s probably set up for 4000 RPM, not 2500 RPM.

I can’t really tell from the photos, but the ways don’t appear to be pristine, however unless the machine was completely thrashed I would say that $2500 was a pretty good deal for this machine. Hopefully the new owner will check in here.

Cal

I have a 42' round dial with the same ELSR setup as this one along with the long cross-feed slide with dovetail. As to the knob on the ELSR casting, it locks out the ELSR rod. I'm not sure if it does anything else, but when it is pushed in it locks up the ELSR rod so it won't rotate.

Thanks for the info on the ELSR.

Is the long cross-feed slide one piece? From the photos it almost looks like a second casting bolted to the back of a standard slide.

Cal

It's one piece at least on mine. I've always intended to make up a second toolpost to mount back there for parting but have never gotten it done. This is the first time I've ever seen the accumulating dial on the carriage feed. I didn't know such an animal existed.

Love it, seemed to go for a good price too!

Hi
This is just to check in on this thread. I'm the new owner. I'm still pinching myself. I would not have believed I could have gotten such a machine for this price. The knowledge on this forum is astounding. I am very glad to be able to tap into it. Who knows? Maybe some day I will actually contribute. So far I can tell you this. The tailstock is indeed 2MT. This was a nice discovery since I already have a bunch of 2MT tooling. The double dial on the carriage feed I am still puzzling over. Only the one nearest the bed seems to turn. More later. I'll send pix of the ways. There is one grinder ding. But for the most part they look pretty good to my inexpert eye. I have tomorrow to spend romancing the new toy. I'lll share.
Paul Barton

The double dial on the carriage feed I am still puzzling over. Only the one nearest the bed seems to turn. More later.

Click to expand...

There should be a lever (or some other method) to release the outer dial so that it can be set to zero. Maybe it's been left loose?

Cal

I feel like I somehow just did a dirty deed to history. I deprived some aspiring industrial archaeologist of a thesis. Or I cheated some exobiologist out of a chance to study life for 67 years under unearthly conditions. Or, perhaps, I just deprived some B-movie screenwriter of the chance to breathe life into the creature from the drip pan that ate Union City, NJ with relish. I cleaned out the sump in the drip pan of 27264. I did not take any pictures of the guck that came out of it. Think the La Brea Tar Pits with swarf. But I think I will post a picture of the cleaned-out sump. Most of you probably have better sense than I and have never seen one. I put the two gallons or so of chips drained of any oil that would drain in a plastic bag inside a flower pot inside a cardboard box. When I take it to the landfill I shall lie. I'll just tell them that it is oily metal waste. Not true. It has a life of its own.

OK I'm going to try to plug in some pictures.

[URL="http://www.plumlocum.com/Monarch/AC-motor.jpg"]http://www.plumlocum.com/Monarch/AC-motor.jpg

This probably looked bad. But I am only trying the one. It will probably be obvious to some one what I did wrong.
Paul Barton

Finally! Some pictures of EE27264

thermite said:

Not to worry. Even 'The Blob' wouldn't venture to eat Union City, NJ. Not with relish or pepto-bismol.

Click to expand...

Yeah, anything out of that mess would be a very tough monster.

I'm getting better at this post pix thing. But it is still enough labor and frustration to get them up at all that there still isn't any particular order.

The control unit looks like it was not wired too long ago. The blue insulation is modern.
http://www.plumlocum.com/Monarch/control-unit.jpg

Here is the cross slide with its rear dovetail block. There is a shop-made cover over the taper attachment that came on the lathe.
http://www.plumlocum.com/Monarch/cross-slide.jpg

It looks like somebody dropped a running tool post grinder on the rear way. This is the ugliest part.
http://www.plumlocum.com/Monarch/ding-in-the-ways.jpg

Close up of the ugly
http://www.plumlocum.com/Monarch/ding-in-the-ways-closeup.jpg

Obvious what this is. The bug-eaten brown label fell off when I touched it.
http://www.plumlocum.com/Monarch/drive-pully.jpg

That seems to be all the thumbnails I could upload. More pix next post.

Paul

More pictures of 27264

I have been trying to attach thumbnails and have them link to images on my own website. It is not going well.
So I'm going to do this in a more pedestrian manner. The links to the pictures show up on my browser as blue. It is not all that easy to tell them from the text.

Here are some views of the ways. Tailstock end. Headstock end. They actually are straight. Ansel Adams I am not.


The LS reverse control. The stop on the rod is out of focus and just visible at the right of the picture.

I can only clean for just so long (about five minutes) before I start putzing.
The left stop on the ELSR consists of a sliding body that is anchored to the bar by a set screw and
a threaded collar at the body's right end that screws out to provide fine adjustment.
It, too is secured by a set screw that bears on the threads. The latter had, in the fullness of time,
clobbered the threads. After I cleaned them up with a swiss file, I decided a soft tip was needed for the screw.
If I'm going to fix one, I'll fix the other with a brass tip. They look like this. The grey tip is some sort of gorilla-grade polymer that I got at [alas!] Boing surplus a long time ago.

Here is the round dial up close.

As I first ran the speed-control knob up and down and felt just a bit of notchiness in it, I thought "feels like wire wound potentiometer," envisioning a one inch ceramic loop wound with nichrome.
Then I got the headsock cover off. and marveled at just how much I had failed to get it when I beheld the actual speed control pot.
There is a belt tensioner missing. I made a new one out of the spindle and headstock bearings of a wood lathe removed from service for reasons unrelated to bearing failure.

And finally, here is a bit of the tailstock. What is the little removable doo dad just to the left of the oil plug?
It seems to be bedded down in a hole full of white crud.

That does it for the pictures of things I thought to be interesting enough to share. If y'all want to see anything in particular, please let me know and I'll try to post an image.

Paul

Hi Paul,

Great pictures! We need some overall views too. Don’t be afraid to put your photos in line; use the insert image button on the advanced editor menu. As long as you keep the resolution down to about 600x800 nobody complains and it’s a lot easier to talk about things if you don’t have to jump back and forth to another window.

The trick to using PM’s built in image hosting is to keep the size of the JPG under 90 odd kb. If you resave your pictures at a resolution of 600x800 and set the quality down to about 40% the photo should be small enough. For some reason PM resizes GIF files and destroys information even if they are small enough. I used to be able to post large line drawings as GIFs, but no more.

I think the light blue wiring in the motor/generator (MG) terminal box is vintage. I have the same wire and the metal tags that you do, as do lots of other machines of the time. It’s interesting that your conduits are opposite from mine; on my machine the AC comes in at the top and the wiring for the DC panel leaves out the bottom. It’s a lot easier to make the connections that way.

It looks like you’re already wired for 240. You’ll want to check the overload heaters to make sure that they’re the right size for 240.

Originally the machine had a control handle on the right side of the carriage with a threaded adjuster like the one on the left. The casting on the right end of the ELSR control rod has a nut in it and the rod has a screw on the end. Raising or lowering the handle causes the screw to rotate and push or pull the rod, operating the switches in the control box on the headstock.



The control rod should have a keyway down its length for the key in the handle. If you look at parts picture E14 in the ‘42 10EE manual you can see all the parts.


I suspect that the original set screw for the stops used a brass “binder plug” [E14-45] rather than a brass tip. I don’t know how they kept the plug from rotating, but typically they would tap the plug along with the rest of the body so that it had mating threads cut into it and wouldn’t bear on the peak of the mating thread. You might look carefully at the hole in the stop body and see if it’s square or pinned or something to accommodate the binder plug.

I don’t know about your machine, but the parts picture shows a two piece lock screw [E14-44] and finger (lever) [E14-43] (similar to the one on the front of the cross-feed dial) for tightening the stops. These would have been fitted to operate with 90 degrees of motion.

Not all machines had two idlers on the drive belt. Since you have a T-slot on both sides you probably did have 2 idlers originally. Sometimes there was a cast iron bracket on the right idler to raise it up 3 or 4 inches (I’m not sure why).



Your idler looks like the type used on flat belt machines, but a lot of V-belt machines used them too. Here’s a photo of the other type of idler used on V-belt machines:



Is the top speed shown on your tachometer 4000 RPM?

Little things like the tailstock dauber, the original oil fill plugs, etc., which seem to get lost from these machines, indicate that your machine had very good care. I wonder how much of the original tooling was with it when Reliable got it. It would be a shame if the original tool cabinet, steady and follower rests, etc., got sold off piecemeal. Look on the backs of your chucks and see if there is a serial number stamped there; if it matches the machine it’s part of the original tooling. The rests also had the machine’s serial number stamped on them, usually on the bottom.

Unfortunately, your round dial and other number plates are the raunchy old pot metal variety. I had mine chrome plated to make them more durable and easier to read.



Cal

We dress them as it moves us, you do as you wish. We're all happy.

Thanks to Thermite for the general encouragement and for the info about the dauber. That explains both the doo dad and the white crud. I forgot about white lead for lubricating dead centers.

Cal Haines said:

Hi Paul,

Great pictures! We need some overall views too. Don’t be afraid to put your photos in line; use the insert image button on the advanced editor menu. As long as you keep the resolution down to about 600x800 nobody complains and it’s a lot easier to talk about things if you don’t have to jump back and forth to another window.

The trick to using PM’s built in image hosting is to keep the size of the JPG under 90 odd kb. If you resave your pictures at a resolution of 600x800 and set the quality down to about 40% the photo should be small enough. For some reason PM resizes GIF files and destroys information even if they are small enough. I used to be able to post large line drawings as GIFs, but no more.

Click to expand...

Ok. When I get it back together I will do some over all views. In line photos will be easier, thanks. I will still post the hi res ones on plumlocum.com.

Cal Haines said:

Originally the machine had a control handle on the right side of the carriage with a threaded adjuster like the one on the left. The casting on the right end of the ELSR control rod has a nut in it and the rod has a screw on the end. Raising or lowering the handle causes the screw to rotate and push or pull the rod, operating the switches in the control box on the headstock.

The control rod should have a keyway down its length for the key in the handle. If you look at parts picture E14 in the ‘42 10EE manual you can see all the parts.

I suspect that the original set screw for the stops used a brass “binder plug” [E14-45] rather than a brass tip. I don’t know how they kept the plug from rotating, but typically they would tap the plug along with the rest of the body so that it had mating threads cut into it and wouldn’t bear on the peak of the mating thread. You might look carefully at the hole in the stop body and see if it’s square or pinned or something to accommodate the binder plug.

I don’t know about your machine, but the parts picture shows a two piece lock screw [E14-44] and finger (lever) [E14-43] (similar to the one on the front of the cross-feed dial) for tightening the stops. These would have been fitted to operate with 90 degrees of motion.

Click to expand...

The ELSR rod does have the full-length keyway. I suspected originally that Monarch had made the stop as you describe. I think the set screws on mine are shop-made replacements. The knurls are very poor and suggest that the maker did not care about them. Nothing else on the machine has that sloppy look. I did not much want to make a tap to match the threads on the stop extension for the sake of threading the plug. I get the same result with less elegance from the polymer tip. I don't know what the plastic is. But it is really tough.

The handle for flipping the rod looks like a good idea. As you come back from a daydream to notice your $$zillion carbide insert coming to the blind of a nearly-finished acme thread the natural reaction is to start flapping about wildly. There is a better than even money chance that a flap wil hit that handle and reverse the lead screw for you. This machine really feels like it was designed by somebody who really used them.

Cal Haines said:

Not all machines had two idlers on the drive belt. Since you have a T-slot on both sides you probably did have 2 idlers originally. Sometimes there was a cast iron bracket on the right idler to raise it up 3 or 4 inches (I’m not sure why).


Your idler looks like the type used on flat belt machines, but a lot of V-belt machines used them too. Here’s a photo of the other type of idler used on V-belt machines:

Click to expand...

It looks like the "other" type of idler bore on the V side of the belt.


I hated to see the T-slot go begging. Besides, that seemed like a long enough length of belt that its flapping might have shown up in the finish. So I made the idler. Basically that was more fun than pouring kerosene through the gear cases and cleaning out the drip pan. The cast iron bracket makes sense. In your photo it appears to get around a drain. On my lathe the drain is as far front as it could get. Nonetheless, the idler mounted directly in the T-slot does not indent the belt as much as I might wish. This will probably bug me to the point of making a bracket.

Cal Haines said:

Is the top speed shown on your tachometer 4000 RPM?

Click to expand...

Yes it shows 4000 rpm max.

Cal Haines said:

Little things like the tailstock dauber, the original oil fill plugs, etc., which seem to get lost from these machines, indicate that your machine had very good care. I wonder how much of the original tooling was with it when Reliable got it. It would be a shame if the original tool cabinet, steady and follower rests, etc., got sold off piecemeal. Look on the backs of your chucks and see if there is a serial number stamped there; if it matches the machine it’s part of the original tooling. The rests also had the machine’s serial number stamped on them, usually on the bottom.

Click to expand...

I will check the chucks. I did scour Reliable's web store for anything that might have been part of the tooling for the lathe and found nothing. They may not be the most charming folks in the world, but they seem to respect the machines. The guy with the forklift that loaded it for us was so skillful and gentle that I would trust him to move my grandbaby with that thing.

Cal Haines said:

Unfortunately, your round dial and other number plates are the raunchy old pot metal variety. I had mine chrome plated to make them more durable and easier to read.

Click to expand...

Now, those dials are something! A fellow who didn't know better might conclude that you are kinda proud of your lathe!

Paul

Having the dial and plates chromed wasn't just for cosmetics. The pot metal is pretty soft, so the chrome adds protection and it makes the plates much easier to read. It only cost about $65 to have everything plated. IIRC, they plated first with nickle, then chrome.

Cal

Cal Haines said:

Having the dial and plates chromed wasn't just for cosmetics. The pot metal is pretty soft, so the chrome adds protection and it makes the plates much easier to read. It only cost about $65 to have everything plated. IIRC, they plated first with nickle, then chrome.

Click to expand...

Never meant to imply that the chrome wasn't functionial. But I still reckon that you are just a wee mite proud-like when you mention that lathe. I certainly am of mine and I haven't done anything to justify it except buy and tote the thing. It is a good thing!

thermite said:

Moreover a 10EE is reversible, so that wants front AND rear idlers.

'Forensically', it appears that Monarch positioned the idlers near span mid-point as they did so as to reduce risk of vibration starting in those long belts, not to increase sheave grip.

Ergo a light touch should be all that is wanted, as the belts are being used at half or a bit less of their rated max load for the sheave sizes used.

Click to expand...

Good points. Vibration was my main concern. But I only thought it half way through when I went to adjust tension.

Paul

Hello

Here is a picture of the oil sump. Certainly nothing glamorous but getting down to it was a sort of adventure destination after what it took to clean it out. The white flecks are bits of oil absorbent, The sort of irregular line is not a crack so far as I can tell. There is nothing on the underside to match. Just seems to be a mold mark.


Here is the dial on the carriage wheel. The one with the coarse gradations moves when the carriage is moved. The other one does not. I have not found a way to free it from the position that it is in.


There are no knobs on the outside. There is no connection between the feed-enable lever beside it. I can pass a string between them.


I ordered a manual from Monarch hoping that it would detail this and the ELSR. It is just generic round dial. I'm not really complaining. It is amazing that they have as much as they do on seventy-year-old machines. Lucky for me that you guys are willing to devote the time and energy to this group. Unless someone has a better suggestion, I'm going to set about getting the wheel off then opening up the dials.

I have not fired the lathe up yet. I have the recommended grease for the Reliant drive coming from Piedmont Hoist and I still want to check the brushes.


PAUL


Paul

Great to hear you will do mechanical forensics on that enigma dial. Please take photos of its innards, you might need them and we'd be interested to learn about a rare feature. There will be gears in it, careful when separating the outer parts. It's not fun when little bits fall out and hit the deck from who knows where.

Paul,

There should be some way to set the outer dial to zero. Maybe it works by friction. Are you able to rotate it by hand?

How about the handwheel? Perhaps you piston it in or out to engage the dial?

When you take it apart make sure that you put witness marks on all mating pieces. Gears in particular need to be marked because often the timing of the gears is important.

Cal

Cal Haines said:

Paul,
When you take it apart make sure that you put witness marks on all mating pieces. Gears in particular need to be marked because often the timing of the gears is important.

Cal

Click to expand...

There is a Larsen cartoon that show two English safari types in a tent. One is standing. He is eyeing his tightly laced boots with a surprised concern. His fellow is seated on a cot with one boot on and engaged in dumping all manner of foul-looking creatures from his other boot. Witness marks would have been a good idea. More later.
Paul