silver solder less cadmium now.

john.k · Aug 24, 2013

I m working on a project,which most of you wont approve of ,that requires an insert to be soldered into the chamber of a barrel made of sae 1350.The steel is quenched in oil and tempered at 650degC.I made the insert with the required clearance,but when I went to buy some 45% silver solder,the type that melts under 650C is no longer available,as cadmium is banned ,says the salesman.The MP is now well over 700C,which will soften the barrel undesirably,in my opinion.Is there any source of 45% silver solder with cadmium still available.Regards John.

CRASH28 · Aug 24, 2013

Have you looked in the Brownell book,

Mcmaster Carr also,

You may be stuck with high strength lead solder ,

Good luck , .............................

Dave W · Aug 25, 2013

You might be able to find the old type of solder from an international supplier. Try adding ".uk" or ".ca" to your web search string.

trevj · Aug 25, 2013

The UK suppliers have done away with it now too.

Much moaning and groaning, in the UK Model Engineering magazines over that.

Gonna have to scrounge amongst friends or figure out what will work from the replacement crop of products.

Second the Brownell's Catalog check, eh.

Cheers
Trev

speerchucker30x3 · Aug 25, 2013

Cup Alloys sells low temp cadmium free, hard silver solder. They are UK based but will ship to anyone with money.

Net Braze also sells low temp cadmium free and they are US base and will sell over sea's. They make stuff that flows at 576 degrees Celsius.

They don't say what they are adding to make it flow at low temperatures but its probably zinc, bismuth or gold.

Cup Alloys - Low Temp Silver Solder - www.cupalloys.co.uk

Silver Solders

445supermag · Aug 25, 2013

Mcmaster-carr sells 45% silver with 24% cadmium, melting point 607-618C - McMaster-Carr

speerchucker30x3 · Aug 25, 2013

I would email McMaster-Carr first before getting your hopes up. I tried to order stuff from them a couple times. One time they shot me down because what I wanted was epoxy and it was listed as a Hazardous Goods in Canada so they would not ship. The other time they told me that they didn't do small international orders to Canada. You can google it but it seems that it's a common complaint. Last I heard even Midway would no longer ship international for the same reasons. To damned much hassle.

See below:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...-blocking-international-customers-wtf-264855/

MIBill · Aug 25, 2013

I don't know if you have your heart set on 45%... If the meting point is your primary concern I would try:

MuggyWeld.com

They have a 56% silver with a MP of 621°C (1150°F) and a Strength of "Over 70,000 PSI"
Their paste is also 56% silver with a MP of 566°C (1050°F) and a Strength of "Over 85,000 PSI"

MuggyWeld.com FAQ said:
Do you have any distributors in my area?

We are an internet based company only, and we're happy to ship anywhere worldwide. Call us at (360) 357-4770

I use both types to silver solder the bolt-heads to my bolt bodies. I also use their "Cool Blue" heat paste to protect the lugs and the bolt body away from the area I am working on and can actually hold the bolt body while I heat it and the bolt head.

Dubbie · Aug 26, 2013

I just purchased some muggy weld ss6

I'm all the way down in New Zealand and I have to say they were great to deal with. Very helpful and my package arrived quickly and well packaged. Product works brilliant as well.

R

john.k · Aug 26, 2013

Gentlemen,thank you for your replies.I will order some "muggy weld "straight away.Thanks again.Regards John.

speerchucker30x3 · Aug 26, 2013

They have a 56% silver with a MP of 621°C (1150°F) and a Strength of "Over 70,000 PSI"
Their paste is also 56% silver with a MP of 566°C (1050°F) and a Strength of "Over 85,000 PSI"

Very interesting numbers. I wonder what the strength of 4140 steel is ?

MIBill · Aug 26, 2013

speerchucker30x3 said:
They have a 56% silver with a MP of 621°C (1150°F) and a Strength of "Over 70,000 PSI"
Their paste is also 56% silver with a MP of 566°C (1050°F) and a Strength of "Over 85,000 PSI"

Very interesting numbers. I wonder what the strength of 4140 steel is ?

That would depend on the heat treat, now wouldn't it? The heat treat described in OP post would probably be in the 25-28Rc range. Yield should be somewhere in the 90K -110Kpsi range. However, the strength of the solder would not be that big of a deal for his application as it only needs to hold his bushing in place. Those numbers, if accurate, are rather impressive for a solder with that low of a melting point.

dhepler · Aug 26, 2013

I still have a few 1 troy oz containers of 3439 00 224 3573 (google this) which is silver 46. copper 31.0 zinc 27 other 0.15 and it is 1/16 od. The specs are QQB-654-a and BAG-5 I sold a bunch on here some time ago but have a lot left.

speerchucker30x3 · Aug 26, 2013

MIBill said:
That would depend on the heat treat, now wouldn't it? The heat treat described in OP post would probably be in the 25-28Rc range. Yield should be somewhere in the 90K -110Kpsi range. However, the strength of the solder would not be that big of a deal for his application as it only needs to hold his bushing in place. Those numbers, if accurate, are rather impressive for a solder with that low of a melting point.

VERY impressive, even for regular temp silver solder. I suppose the required strength of the joint would depend entirely on the chamber pressure, chamber dimension and the surface area of the joint. Easy enough to work out or estimate I suppose. I often wonder how some of these manufacturers get their numbers. I always get skittish when they make unearthly claims about their products. Sleeving chambers is not exactly a recommended or excepted practice but neither is jumping out of perfectly good airplanes and people do that all the time.

wesg · Aug 26, 2013

speerchucker30x3 said:
neither is jumping out of perfectly good airplanes and people do that all the time.

Skydiver's quote: 'if it were a perfectly good airplane, it wouldn't be at a drop zone'.

GGaskill · Aug 26, 2013

Very interesting numbers. I wonder what the strength of 4140 steel is ?

Annealed, it is about 95,000 psi. Can be heat treated to over 200,000 psi. 1018 mild steel is around 55,000 psi.

speerchucker30x3 · Aug 26, 2013

wesg said:
Skydiver's quote: 'if it were a perfectly good airplane, it wouldn't be at a drop zone'.

Supply Sergent's quote: "If that parachute don't work, bring it back. I'll give you another one !"

MIBill · Aug 27, 2013

speerchucker30x3 said:
VERY impressive, even for regular temp silver solder.

I'm only passing on their information. I think the numbers sound a bit high but I have never tried to brake a joint I've put together with the stuff either. In fact I pin my bolt heads to the body after I solder them. I don't trust solder very much.

speerchucker30x3 said:
I suppose the required strength of the joint would depend entirely on the chamber pressure, chamber dimension and the surface area of the joint. Easy enough to work out or estimate I suppose.

Sure. But the loading on the soldered joint would be lower than the chamber pressure due to the greater diameter of the sleeve and the fact that the sleeve itself would take up a fair bit of the load as well. So as long as they didn't get too carried away with inflating the strength I don't think THAT will be a problem.

speerchucker30x3 said:
I often wonder how some of these manufacturers get their numbers. I always get skittish when they make unearthly claims about their products.

You'll get no argument from me on that!

speerchucker30x3 said:
Sleeving chambers is not exactly a recommended or excepted practice but neither is jumping out of perfectly good airplanes and people do that all the time.

I wouldn't do it. I think it is at best false economy. At worst a hazard. However, If OP is going to do it he's going to do it. Since he is in Australia and I am not... I feel reasonably safe. Barrels are not that expensive that I feel the need to do something like this and take the risk.

Wait a minute... Polite discourse?? WTF? :confused:

john.k · Aug 28, 2013

Gentlemen,you all live in a perfect world of precision barrels and custom actions,and probably haven't noticed the serious money that is being paid for old military clunkers,as the centenary of the great war approaches.Many of these treasures have been knocked about in the last hundred years,and have things like holes drilled thru the chambers,or bolts threaded into chambers.The proud owners would like to emulate their grandfathers and greatgrandfathers by shootin off their collectibles,and to make this possible,the chamber needs to be sleeved.Some just fill the holes with weld,but that's not a very satisfactory repair.So there you have it.Incidentally,muggyweld put me on to a source of cadmium silver solder.Its called Sil.Fos Easy.Flo 45.Regards John.

speerchucker30x3 · Aug 28, 2013

Actually I think you might learn that we make a great deal of money off of reclaimed military paraphernalia. The problem here in North America is that everyone has gotten lawsuit crazy. It has gotten to the point that 90% of gunsmiths here just can not afford to lay out $10,000 plus a year for the insurance and people will chase you if a stock breaks and he gets a splinter in his finger. People will sue here if they slip on a wet floor or an ice covered sidewalk. Its gotten rather out-of-hand. There are certain repairs and types of repairs that have just become taboo. Welding on the chamber areas or sleeving chamber areas of guns chambered for high pressure cartridges happens to be one of those things. In the same way that chambering 1893/95 Mausers to high pressure 60,000 PSI cartridges, welding on bolt lugs or the forward area of rifle receivers became more or less off limits when I entered this trade back in 1980. I'm not saying that it can not be done or has not been done. It's simply become a grey area here that most no longer will cross.

ADD NOTE:

Just out of curiosity, what did Muggy Weld have to say about using their product for described purpose? It's a product that we do not see on our shelves here in Canada but it soundls like it could be used for repairing aluminum and pot metal trigger gaurds and floor plates. I have used the BernzOmatic aluminum solder for years and while it works on 60 and 70 series aluminum its usless for pot metal.

silver solder less cadmium now.

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