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Need info. on Monarch 10ee requirements/skills

cpd62

Plastic
Joined
May 28, 2013
Location
Worcester, MA
I'm looking to purchase a Monarch 10ee. I have experiencing doing basic wiring (I just installed a VFD on a 3 ph motor for my WT drill press) and restored the 1936 machine by taking it apart and cleaning. Beyond that I don't have experience or understanding of motor rebuilding or electrical relays/field generation which seems necessary to diagnose Monarch 10ee's with the Wiad design.

I have located a 1957 10ee for a decent price. The machine is nice and clean. It doesn't run. All the small tubes light up but the 2 large ones don't. It has no significant tooling. I don;t have 3 phase power.

I have a few questions:

1. Are these machines amenable to static phase converters so I can run on a single phase 220 line? If so is what skill does it take to install?
2. What skills and basic knowledge is necessary to fix a Wiad drive?
3. What's a fair price on a clean machine with AT LEAST 2 blown large tubes and any other unknown problems.

4. Ultimately is this worth the risk for me or am I best served getting one that works?

I have another lead on one that looks to have been converted to a new motor and VFD. The tach was replaced with a variable speed pot. It's not the nicest restoration but it sure seemed to run smooth. I'm not a machinist and plan to do this for a hobby. I've been discouragfed from getting this "frankenlathe". Some have said the low speed function will be compromised.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Christian
 
Christian,
A Wiad can be converted to run from 240 volt single phase as the DC drive (WiaD) is single phase input. If it is a 240 volt machine then the conversion is minor, If it is a 480 volt machine it can be converted with a little more work but it is not bad. You will not need a RPC for a Wiad or Modular but will need one for a MG drive.
If the two big tubes are bad--it is expensive. Used tubes are about $200 eac. See the Parts and tooling for sale on this site as I think there are some for sale now. If you buy new--expect to pay $1000+ for each big tube.
A Wiad machine not running is worth much less than a running one. The Wiad is harder to work on than a Modular but some folks here have worked on them. I repaired one earlier this year but it turned out to be a simple job--burned contactor contacts and motor brushes out of time. You can likely get an entire Wiad Drive from someone that has converted theirs to AC.

As to the lathe with a recent AC conversion--get photos and post them. We need to see the motor and to see the AC drive to tell very much. If the AC motor has the backgear box mounted on the end of the motor then you may have a good conversion. Most used machinery dealers remove the DC motor and backgear and just install a AC motor with a pulley and claim they have "upgraded the machine". A 10EE without the backgear will suffer at low speeds. Monarch did some this way but they used a 10 hp AC motor to get more low end torque. An AC conversion should be 5 hp or larger. A 3 hp AC conversion will not duplicate the orginal 3 hp DC drive.

Other folks will have a lot more details.
 
Searches will answer lots of your questions. A WIAD drive will run just fine on single phase (as will the later modular drive) no need for a phase converter. The only thing that is 3 phase is the coolant pump - if it is there, and there are work arounds if you plan to use the pump.

There are people that will help you debug the drive on this list (I do not have the electrical knowledge). Starting point again would be searching on what has been discussed int he past.

I would not assume that both C16J's are dead (unless damaged). I have a working modular drive and am only a few miles from Worcester - if you buy the machine you can bring the C16J's over and test them in a working drive to see if they are ok (I also have a bunch of tubes available posted on this list).

Price should be based on condition and tooling. Price goes up with things like taper, ELSR, 30" bed. Down for damage and wear, you can do some checks on wear even with a non functioning machine. Non working drive should drive price down by a bunch, I don't know the price of doing a conversion - but WAG would be 700-1K, fixing the current drive should be a lot less even if you need two new C16J's (figure about $200 ea. Thats what I have tested ones available for - if you can wait you may find untested ones on ebay cheaper).

Wild guess on a square dial, non working drive, (no ELSR, taper, or major tooling) $1500-2500 plus or minus an elephant.

Paul
 
If both of the large thyratrons are not lit, there is a fair chance that the problem is not the tubes but the source of power or drive. Many people immediately want to rip out all the original motor and circuitry and paste in some substitute. Most of the time they would be far better off to learn something (difficult for a lot of people) and get it working the way some very smart people designed it at the factory.

Bill
 
I'm looking to purchase a Monarch 10ee. I have experiencing doing basic wiring

I've been discouragfed from getting this "frankenlathe". Some have said the low speed function will be compromised.

I would not see a problem with the "frankenlathe" in most industrial situations. If you need a hard and fast wiring diagram to diagnose and repair a modern vfd conversion, well you ain't much of an electrician in my humble opinion. The vfd's are all ac and fairly simple. You just need to be able to figure it out as you go. I have multiple 10EE's, running original motor generator machines, a Beel convesion dc drive( that was a wiad original ) and an AC Vector "frankenlathe" of my own.

It depends how the retrofit to vfd was done. On mine I put in the 2 speed gear box that was originally there. However, I don't think I have had it in low range in some time. Its controllable enough with enough torque on my 7.5 HP black max vector motor to do everything I have asked of it and it has enough torque in high range to do the light work this lathe does in my shop. I do have heavier geared head machines for heavier work.... so your experiance may vary. One word of caution to anyone wanting to stuff a 7.5HP black max and the gearbox in the belly - I had to break out the acetylene torch and do some cutting to fit it all in.... not for the weak hearted for sure but it has not seemed to affect machine accuracy.

as far as fixing a wiad I think you need:
1. the time to put into it
2. a good voltmeter
3. good people to ask for help
3. at least enough knowledge you don't get knocked on your ass with the 600 Volts lurking in some places in that drive, you get that asking good people for help.
 
Is this the one on Ebay for $2500?

Sorry for the late response but yes. This machine sold for $2000. I'm looking at another now MG drive with solid state DC drive system. The advice here is good. Gives me confidence to get one of these machines and trouble shoot as needed.
 
While you missed that machine, keep looking there are more than a few around you. That said the MG sets have little in the way of solid state stuff, all electro-mechanical relays contactors and the like. Simplier by a factor of ten. The downside is that the MG runs all the time the lathe is ON, even if the spindle is not turning the MG is ON. So noise is a issue, I moved my RPC into the garage from the shop just so I didn't have to hear it.

When I purchased this 10EE, in 06 it was sold to me with a non-working drive, this had been the unit the shop would rob the parts from to keep the other units running. So although it had all parts but the C-16's I was told most every part was bad. So I tossed the WIAD and installed a Black Max and VFD. Looking back now I believe that the drive was not near as bad as I was lead to believe, as so many of the parts I sold off it, tested fine by the guys who bought them.

If I ever come across a 30" WIAD I will not hesitate to rebuilt the drive system.
 
Applicable to WiaD OR Modular, the drive system has several internal transformers.

The largest, the anode transformer for the armature regulator, is always 230/460 volts, so there is no issue there.

Alas, the other transformers are either 230 or 460, and taps are provided to compensate for low (200/400) or high (250/500) line voltage.

In the files is a description of how a single 250 V-A 115/230 to 230/460 control transformer may be installed on either a WiaD or a Modular machine and effect the conversion of the remaining transformers.

This conversion also addresses the coil voltage of the main contactor.

You may install an "open frame" transformer within the machine's base, or you may install an enclosed "dry type" transformer on the back of the machine and route the wires to the internal terminal points.
 








 
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