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10K Tooling

seaamaster

Plastic
Joined
Oct 27, 2018
New to the forum.
1974, 10K, 1/2hp 3 ph w VFD, with a Create A tool post. A, not Aa
looking for Education / Insight, and thoughts on the following question.
Its time to buy tooling. Budget in mind however would rather buy good tooling once than buy bad tooling many times. Would like to start with indexable insert type tooling.
First off this will be primarily hobby and self education. Not knowing, should I have a preference on tool holders 16mm/0.629" using 1/2" shank or 20mm/3/4" shank? bigger is more rigged makes me think 3/4" is the way to go however also cost increases. Might be overkill for the 10K, and on the other end looks like when you get into searching 1/2" tooling might have less selection. As of now I've looked at kennametal only. Just trying to get things going. Need to get right hand & left hand for turning and facing, internal and external threading, boring bar and parting/cut off. Part #s pictures would save me some headache. Even if its what you would go with if $ was not a concern. Any recommendations and education are greatly appreciated. :confused:
 
I think your plans for turning tooling may be overly ambitious. That's a 10K lathe which is just a bigger 9" Workshop lathe. It's a bit of a "flexible flyer" when compared to some of the big boys so the utility of indexable is questionable because you can't run the speeds and take the heavy cuts you need to take advantage of the tooling you're talking about.

Take a breather, learn to use the lathe with high speed steel tool bits that you grind yourself and there's no shame in using the lantern tool post that came with the lathe.

If you really want a quick change tool post, then something like the Phase II AXA post works well with that size lathe. It's plenty stout for that application.
 
I agree with Dobermann - indexable tooling is not for a 10k. The only indexable tooling that I use on my heavy 10 is a 60° threading tool, which works very well. All other cutting tools I grind out of HSS.

As for toolposts, I use an Aloris AXA clone wedge type toolpost. I can pick up the tool holders for less than $15 each. That makes having many toolholders loaded with various bit grinds rather easy.

It's better to get comfortable learning in the shallow end rather than just jumping into the deep end.
 
Here is where to start...call with your needs and you will be taken care of.

Lathe inserts .com

IMO no need for any more than 1/2" turning and facing tools...not sure you could get much bigger on centerline anyway....a 3/4" tool on a 10k with the expectation of increased rigidity is akin to expecting a tree with the branches on the bottom and the trunk on top to not fall over.

Ps- get one of the 1/2" shank CCMT or DCMT holders with inserts....they are useful tools that turn and face equally well without changing position.... and will remain useful even if you start grinding your own HSS.

Again, call and talk to Curtis, he knows his stuff and will set you on the right path
 
Last edited:
New to the forum.
1974, 10K, 1/2hp 3 ph w VFD, with a Create A tool post. A, not Aa
looking for Education / Insight, and thoughts on the following question.
Its time to buy tooling. Budget in mind however would rather buy good tooling once than buy bad tooling many times. Would like to start with indexable insert type tooling.
First off this will be primarily hobby and self education. Not knowing, should I have a preference on tool holders 16mm/0.629" using 1/2" shank or 20mm/3/4" shank? bigger is more rigged makes me think 3/4" is the way to go however also cost increases. Might be overkill for the 10K, and on the other end looks like when you get into searching 1/2" tooling might have less selection. As of now I've looked at kennametal only. Just trying to get things going. Need to get right hand & left hand for turning and facing, internal and external threading, boring bar and parting/cut off. Part #s pictures would save me some headache. Even if its what you would go with if $ was not a concern. Any recommendations and education are greatly appreciated. :confused:

See the upside-down tree analogy. It's a good one. Another might be having a new set of rather ordinary false teeth and trying to decide whether to eat a killer whale or a hippopotamus all at one bite. Megalodon-duty is for a HEAVY lathe.

Just dasn't fit the circumstance. SBs are not "bad" lathes. Just very LIGHTLY BUILT ones.

What you should give a think to is that 3/8 and 5/16" HSS -even 1/4" - will be more than stiff enough, and faster to grind than larger cross-sections. IOW - not EVEN 1/2"

Rex AA, AAA, 95, most of the Mo-Max. No need even of of Tatung G Stellites. Harder to grind well, and take a lot of time.

You can use a handkerchief assortment of Carbolloy & cousins in brazed carbides, too. They sorta suck, but can be shaped with a grinder. There are hundreds of tons of them going begging cheaply for a home. That can get you through a nasty patch on mystery metal or harder welds.

Just don't get to thinking they can beat good, sharp HSS and buy too many of them. Mostly they will be "drawer queens" in between solving a few odd problems, simply holding down the felt in a Kennedy toolchest in case of high winds.

The other thing about "over tooling"? Too much spend, there can be no money to buy decent quality metal. Then you struggle with trying to work salvaged scrap "mystery metal", or get stuck with plastic or shiney-wood instead of a proper alloy of steel or one of the Bronzes.
 
my experience may be unique...I am a HSS guy to the core,just can't beat it...I took great pride in my cutting tools.

life threw a curveball and I became over time increasingly sensitize to grinding dust and cutting fluids, so going to carbide inserts kept me going until I became crippled up.

while HSS is the clear choice especially if budget is a factor, be assured there ARE inserts that will perform darn near as good as the best HSS grinds.
You pay for that pleasure though.
 
I'm in a similar spot, acquired a 10k (although I am going to give mine a total disassembly & cleaning & new felts, etc.), except that you are ahead of me in already having the create tool "A" toolpost. My own strategy is going to be to get that same make and size of the clone of Swiss multifix, a set of various holders to fit that toolpost, and the RH and LH variants of the 'Diamond Toolholder" - which I have used with adaptation and good results in my bigger lathe (14" LeBlond cone pulley). I figure that the versatility of the diamond toolholders should collaborate nicely with the versatility of the multifix.
 
I'm in a similar spot, acquired a 10k (although I am going to give mine a total disassembly & cleaning & new felts, etc.), except that you are ahead of me in already having the create tool "A" toolpost. My own strategy is going to be to get that same make and size of the clone of Swiss multifix, a set of various holders to fit that toolpost, and the RH and LH variants of the 'Diamond Toolholder" - which I have used with adaptation and good results in my bigger lathe (14" LeBlond cone pulley). I figure that the versatility of the diamond toolholders should collaborate nicely with the versatility of the multifix.

I'm a fan of the "Freevey Berg" tangential graver and the Diamond.

I've long used an approach Herr Pelz applied in production where the angles were set in the tooling blocks and the tools thereby were simple flats that required only a single surface to be ground. Many of his production tooling setups - on a small line of Iron-bearing SB 9", who needed Hardinge Brothers! - were simply Timken Graph-Mo die steel.

Mind - mostly we worked Alpaca metal or brass, now and then the Aluminium forgings for body hearing aid dynamic reproducers AKA "ear buttons"- those on a veteran Hendey tie-bar with shop-fabbed lever-ram TS.

Light lathes can go a lot of neat things with the aid of tangential tooling and skiving techniques.
 
New to the forum.
1974, 10K, 1/2hp 3 ph w VFD, with a Create A tool post. A, not Aa
looking for Education / Insight, and thoughts on the following question.
Its time to buy tooling. Budget in mind however would rather buy good tooling once than buy bad tooling many times. Would like to start with indexable insert type tooling.
First off this will be primarily hobby and self education. Not knowing, should I have a preference on tool holders 16mm/0.629" using 1/2" shank or 20mm/3/4" shank? bigger is more rigged makes me think 3/4" is the way to go however also cost increases. Might be overkill for the 10K, and on the other end looks like when you get into searching 1/2" tooling might have less selection. As of now I've looked at kennametal only. Just trying to get things going. Need to get right hand & left hand for turning and facing, internal and external threading, boring bar and parting/cut off. Part #s pictures would save me some headache. Even if its what you would go with if $ was not a concern. Any recommendations and education are greatly appreciated. :confused:

You have a very good hobby machine there, assuming it is in good condition, but you need to understand that its design dates to 1925 and was optimized for the tools of the era (HSS). It has a plain bearing headstock and is speed limited accordingly. The machine is also very light and does not like high tool loading, as it flexes and vibrates. Carbide is hard and brittle. Carbide does not like vibration, it chips. The brittleness requires smaller rake relief than HSS and hence creates more tool drag and heat. Carbide likes higher cutting speed as well. The 10k does not have the speed, stiffness or power to optimately use carbide.

In the 90 years since this machine was designed, lots of improvements have occurred in this industry and HSS tooling is just one of them. The very best HSS alloys have cobalt in them like M42, M35, T15 and others. These are very hard wearing, they tolerate large edge relief without chipping and can be re-sharpened 100's of times. I have many tool bits in use for more than 30 years and are still going strong. Carbide inserts are not sharpen able easily and are designed to be replaced when dull or chipped. With your 10k, you will find the cost of insert tooling very high. Make the investment of a Baldor tool grinder. Learn how to sharpen HSS and you will save a great deal of money.

There are several proponents on this forum that will advise you otherwise. Do your own research. There are multiple threads on this subject in the archive. Remember, this is your dime, not theirs.
 
Thanks to all that took the time to comment and reply so far.

HSS has been a thought, Not wanting to make the investment "Make the investment of a Baldor tool grinder" as that alone cost more than I have in the Lathe, tool post & VFD. I continue to search, read and learn.

Thoughts on grinding HSS on Zirconia Sanding Belts 1"x30" small and painfully slow yes, however I have it available.
As of now the post/reply by iwananew10K has my attention "be assured there ARE inserts that will perform darn near as good as the best HSS grinds.
You pay for that pleasure though." Will call and thanks for a point of contact.
One thing worked out, 1/2" holders sound to be more than good. 3/8" is a possibility. Thinking 1/2" as it's a better fit on 16mm holder.
Found a thread- South Bend Heavy 10 and Carbide Insert Tooling? - mentioning TPMM and TNMG inserts.
There is the thought of some HSS and some Carbide tooling and holders. or HSS inserts, seems as though the selection is limited on HSS inserts and in a circle back to the start point. The mention of Diamond holders caught my eye, As a HSS holding option or alternative.
1/2" Holder for CCMT,DCMT,TNMG? After some more reading and research feeling like kennametal might be border line price gouging and not the way to go.
Still listening to all and grateful to all!
 
Thanks to all that took the time to comment and reply so far.

HSS has been a thought, Not wanting to make the investment "Make the investment of a Baldor tool grinder" as that alone cost more than I have in the Lathe, tool post & VFD. I continue to search, read and learn.

Thoughts on grinding HSS on Zirconia Sanding Belts 1"x30" small and painfully slow yes, however I have it available.
As of now the post/reply by iwananew10K has my attention "be assured there ARE inserts that will perform darn near as good as the best HSS grinds.
You pay for that pleasure though." Will call and thanks for a point of contact.
One thing worked out, 1/2" holders sound to be more than good. 3/8" is a possibility. Thinking 1/2" as it's a better fit on 16mm holder.
Found a thread- South Bend Heavy 10 and Carbide Insert Tooling? - mentioning TPMM and TNMG inserts.
There is the thought of some HSS and some Carbide tooling and holders. or HSS inserts, seems as though the selection is limited on HSS inserts and in a circle back to the start point. The mention of Diamond holders caught my eye, As a HSS holding option or alternative.
1/2" Holder for CCMT,DCMT,TNMG? After some more reading and research feeling like kennametal might be border line price gouging and not the way to go.
Still listening to all and grateful to all!

Here is a clue: The machine tool, whether lathe , mill or otherwise will represent less than 50% of the total investment of that machine tool. The rest will be for cutters and accessories. Machine tools are not an inexpensive hobby and it is a lifetime pursuit. You are re-inventing the wheel and by not heeding the experience of others will be expensive and unnecessary, but then again education is always costly.
 
Thanks.
Lets say I bite on the HSS what about just a bench grinder n not a tool grinder? No input on the zirconia? Might need to take a breather as stated above. Save some more coin to get the better end result and long term $ savings. I can truly see the majority and the HSS argument, not even a argument at this point, And the lathe being designed for that back in the day. Just because some people are using carbide insert tooling might not equal they should be! Kind of in the mind set of if i was to break some inserts, you pay to play. Don't think I ever spend time in my shop for less than $10 weather thats material, consumables or some cold beer after the fact. Your 50% analogy is the best point of this thread. So 1/2" or 5/8" HSS holders lets say 5/16" HSS. your preference? suggestions?
 
As others have stated, you can use up to 1/2 tool bits on the 10k, but you will need a modern QC tool post rig. I use a Multi-fix A, but the Aloris/Phase II system also work well......your call. I think the ideal size is 3/8". You can use an aluminum oxide 60 grit wheel on a normal bench grinder to sharpen HSS tool bits, I did for many years. Do not use a belt, you will never achieve a good edge. Belts always create a radius. However, the Baldor is the way to go. That investment will pay for itself many times over. You can buy a Chinese copy as well, but they are no where as good as the Baldor. Often, the Chinese grinders will not be balanced nor will the drive flanges always run true, but they are less costly. Check out Keith Fenner's grinder experience and repair on YouTube.
 
The grinder that I use to grind my HSS bits certainly didn't cost $$$. Buy yourself a cheap grinder in the $150 range and start learning how to grind your bits. Don't worry about fancy grinders that can put any angle on your bits by themselves - just learn to eyeball the angle by hand, then fine tune as needed.

For bit sizes, you should start at 1/4" to 3/8", as they are fairly easy to grind and can do 95% of what you'll ever want to do. The largest that I use on my 10L is 1/2" and they can be a PITA to grind from a new blank.

Right now, you're trying to outfit for a safari that you have no idea what you'll really need. Just start turning and learning and pick up what you need as you need it. Remember, with experience comes wisdom.
 
The grinder that I use to grind my HSS bits certainly didn't cost $$$. Buy yourself a cheap grinder in the $150 range and start learning how to grind your bits. Don't worry about fancy grinders that can put any angle on your bits by themselves - just learn to eyeball the angle by hand, then fine tune as needed.

For bit sizes, you should start at 1/4" to 3/8", as they are fairly easy to grind and can do 95% of what you'll ever want to do. The largest that I use on my 10L is 1/2" and they can be a PITA to grind from a new blank.

Right now, you're trying to outfit for a safari that you have no idea what you'll really need. Just start turning and learning and pick up what you need as you need it. Remember, with experience comes wisdom.

Out of curiosity, have you ever used a Baldor grinder with a freshly dressed AO wheel, protractor and tilting table? I don't think you have, because if you did, you wouldn't write the response you did. There truly is no comparison. Grinding a large tool bit correctly is sooooooo much easier with a Baldor.
 
Having prior experience with larger lathes, I struggled with my SB9 and inserts. I have finally settled on an import, wedge-type AXA, armed with a tangential holder and 1/4" HSS bits. Carbide is a waste of time for you. HSS is cheaper, not to mention better performing. There is no advantage to larger bits than 1/4" Regards, Clark
 
Just to clarify.
Have the Multi-fix clone
Original Multifix--Create Tool - Toolholder expert ---- QCTP toolpost | CNC tool holder
(create tool A)with 20mm & 16mm holders, thinking and looking at 1/2" & 5/8" shank size to go into holders on tool post then on/in that insert or HSS. My terminology might be off more than likely it is, tool holder holds HSS bit or insert, what is the technical term for the 16mm or 20mm part cam locked to tool post and holding tool holder tool post round or square thing with wedge or cam and lever.Round and cam in my set up. Tool post Holder, the part that holds the shank size 16mm or 20mm / 1/2" or 5/8" opening then the cutter holder (Diamond as a example) then last the HSS "you should start at 1/4" to 3/8" " or cutting insert, or HSS. think i might be confusing some with the 1/2" and 5/8" this would be part 2 of 4 in the above mix not the actual cutting edge. Im with all of you on the 1/4",5/16"3/8" HSS if that ends up to be. However just went and priced out a starter safari outfit, holders and some extra inserts for < 400 all 5/8" and looking at the Diamond that seems like a starting point for HSS + that cheep grinder. I have some time to get this figured out not in a rush thinking about a week+. The last thing I want is $ spent on things that will not work when needed.
 
With good modern inserts, the power/speed/rigidity arguments do not hold up anymore..cost does though.

There are even inserts that will stand the most demanding interrupted cuts...Really good stuff these days.

Take 60 bucks and buy a 1/2" shank tool and inserts from Curtis.

I'm telling you, he is the man.

Don't waste money on "sets"....one or two at a time as you need them.

The issue with bigger tools is you only have about 1" from top of compound to spindle centerline...I am guessing the a size holders have about 3/8" or more meat on the bottom so that means at most a 5/8" tool with the holder completely bottomed out...not ideal...3/8" or 1/2" will put you more in the range you want to be in.
 
Out of curiosity, have you ever used a Baldor grinder with a freshly dressed AO wheel, protractor and tilting table? I don't think you have, because if you did, you wouldn't write the response you did. There truly is no comparison. Grinding a large tool bit correctly is sooooooo much easier with a Baldor.

Yes, I've used a Baldor. When I was learning, the class also had a Baldor, but we were NOT allowed to use it. The instructor stated that we had to learn how to properly grind the correct angle by hand. He said that once we mastered that, we would never be at the mercy of not having a machine that did the thinking for us.
 
Thanks.
Lets say I bite on the HSS what about just a bench grinder n not a tool grinder? No input on the zirconia? Might need to take a breather as stated above. Save some more coin to get the better end result and long term $ savings. I can truly see the majority and the HSS argument, not even a argument at this point, And the lathe being designed for that back in the day. Just because some people are using carbide insert tooling might not equal they should be! Kind of in the mind set of if i was to break some inserts, you pay to play. Don't think I ever spend time in my shop for less than $10 weather thats material, consumables or some cold beer after the fact. Your 50% analogy is the best point of this thread. So 1/2" or 5/8" HSS holders lets say 5/16" HSS. your preference? suggestions?

"Someday, maybe" a "proper" grinder may float to the top of my RTWL (Round Tuit Wish List).

MEANWHILE, I settle for more simple-dumb spindles. So I need not change wheels often. Because a changed wheel must then be dressed, as a minimum. And might even be out of balance. What works is three, not one of Harbour Freight - yes, you read that right - big orange (8"?). Dice roll. Bearings are good? Just use them. Bearings are bad? My local HF is within WALKING distance were I so inclined. Go and swap. Try again.

Two spindles can have muslin buff and wire wheel. These I don't mind swapping in the least.

The other two "pair", one mounts straight 30 and 60 grit Alox, the final pair, a white cup wheel and a Chinese aluminium hub Diamond touch-up goody - one of several "grit". Bench stones in abundance do the rest.

If there is less f*****g around, one doesn't so much mind hand grinding.

HSS is fine. And Oh, BTW, that's on uber-rigid super-precision toolroom lathes that weigh 3,000 lbs avoir and a bit, and are 2500 RPM / 3300 RPM capable.

The lathes would be happy as clams with carbide.

F**k 'em. They are servants, not masters.

I'm retired. I like to be able to enjoy steak and lobster with a fine wine now and then. Not support the inserts industry with my play money.

Different story altogether if I was running balls-to-the-walls in a hard-driving "revenue" shop. But then again, it would have to be 100% CNC, insertables ONLY, no "manual" lathes under-roof ANYWAY. Horses for courses. Hobby is not industrial.

2 Tatung-G and a Rex 95 worth.
 








 
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