9" South Bend "Insta-Lathe"

This lathe was one of the first 3 lathes we had in our shop, and it's been in storage for a number of years (was also for sale on here awhile back, but we decided to keep it). Recently it hit the shop floor again as I'm trying to consolidate storage space.

(not a very flattering photo but it's the only one I could find of the old set-up).
First thing I did was pull apart the old stand as while it had LOADS of storage space, it was just too much to keep attached to the lathe, and it covered up a lot of the drive assembly too in a safe, but un-practical way.

So then, I set about trying to figure out how to actualy put a stand under this lathe that would make the best use of space. Then this thread poped up:
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/south-bend-lathes/ww2-south-bend-ads-190079/

Particularly this pic.


And so now I've decided to make a portable lathe that can become it's own crate. I like this plan because the lathe is mainly a back-up at this point and we don't have space to keep it permanently on the floor. So this way it can be up in the pallet-racks until it's time for it to come down and play.

This is my current progress (in "crate-mode"). The idea is to pull the top deck off, pull the drawers out, pull the sides off and set them on the empty deck, set the "lathe deck" on top, replace the drawers and plug it in.
In "Lathe mode" the bottom end can be used for storage, and there will be fitted spaces for all the attachments and basic tools to use the machine. In "Crate mode", everything will still have a place but inside the crate, so nothing is lost or damaged.

I'm done welding the frame together and now just need to finish fitting the drawers in, get the plywood sides cut and bolted on, and do some minor repairs on the lathe.

The lathe itself is came from the factory as a standard 9", 3' long bed, tool room lathe with tail stock and cross slide, and big dial on the cross slide, but also included a turret lathe style production cross slide, a lever action cut-off set for the cross slide, and an aftermarket turret assembly.

The previous owner also added an indexing carriage stop with dial indicator. So the lathe can be configured as a regular tool-room lathe, or as a production turret lathe. It also has a lever action 3C collet closer with a bunch of collets, including a bunch of pie-jaw ones, and a bunch of back plates, 3 and 4 jaw chucks, and an assortment of turret lathe tool posts.

Serial#: 51245 N
New: 12-10-1963

The Southbend card is very blank with "special application" written across it.

I think the first owner was a Hardware Store, who I think did a rent-to-own deal with Irwin Spalding, who's the guy that taught my dad machining and sold his tools to him. Irwin came from a background in aircraft instruments and did a lot of home-jobs with this lathe making little brass spindles and pieces for the gauges. We still have the Hardware Stores original receipt for the lathe too.

Neat idea.

Curious about the lathe- I don't see a reverser lever??

iwananew10K said:

Neat idea.

Curious about the lathe- I don't see a reverser lever??

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It's actually that little aluminum lever on the side of the gear train cover. I think it's a "newer" design compared to a lot of the old South Bends I've seen.

Would like to see that, nothing at all like I've ever seen on a SB of any vintage.....might be a really cool modification.

I can't help wondering how the GI in the WWII ad managed to find an outlet in the middle of the jungle. :-)

VSAncona said:

I can't help wondering how the GI in the WWII ad managed to find an outlet in the middle of the jungle. :-)

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The portable generator that was in the same truck that brought the lathe.

Another of the many Spook lathes built by SBL. The one I have was sold to the trident metal appliance company in NYC. You own a piece of history.

VSAncona said:

I can't help wondering how the GI in the WWII ad managed to find an outlet in the middle of the jungle. :-)

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Or how it's working with the switch in the off position.

K

kopeck said:

Or how it's working with the switch in the off position.

K

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Maybe he is trying to unwind his dog tags from the lead screw?

I've been needing to post an update on this project and something drug it back closer to daylight in my consciousness.

The table set-up is mostly done. There's a couple final-fitting pieces to put on it, but otherwise the biggest issue I have is that the drawers I made for it don't slide very well when full of tooling. I'm going to try something like some Teflon strips first, then adding some ball bearings to the angle-iron rails.

iwanannew10k noted that the reverse lever is different. Initially I thought it was just part of the "special application" package from South Bend, but the more I look at it I'm not so sure. It might just be a repair for some shipping damage in the past. If so it was before my Dad's or my time with the machine and the original owner didn't say anything about it. I'll get some better pics and open it up. The cover is made from aluminum sheeting and screwed together so that it's not quickly accessed. If it does turn out to be some kind of repair, I think I'd rather round up the needed OEM parts to put it right. The down side is that the current assembly is pretty close fitting under the table, so I might end up having to modify the table to get it together.

My current lathe at home is a 14"x12' Whitcomb Blaisdell that's without power, as my goal is to get it back on line-shaft power with some other machines. That was going to take place in my little-ol' garage, but more machines and now I've run out of room, so the line-shaft shop is going to be set-up elseware and the current plan is for this little South Bend to come home with me once the Whitcomb Blaisdell vacates the space. The South Bend's shop-mate is a little Bridgeport Round Ram M-head, so they'll make a nice pair. As I noted before, this lathe was one of the first 3 "real" lathes my dad had (I think he had a Crapsman before, but it didn't take long to find its way into the scrap pile). My Dad passed away last month and it's become more important to me to solidify this lathes place in the tool box.

While this lathe is functionally running, I would like to go through it and better evaluate it's state, give it some fresh paint, and now or later I want to re-scrape the ways. I would rather wait until I've got some other projects done, but having this one refitted could really improve it's utility, while some of my other projects that are in dire need of work won't be used as much as this lathe. Luckily the ways are all tiny and shouldn't take long to do. Grinding the bed would really speed things up if I can budget it. I intend to use it like it was intended for general small scale tool and repair work. The small footprint IMO means I'll be frequently maxing out my bed length and having accurate ways will help in that regard. I've had some request for simple gunsmithing too, and while I'm not excited about opening that can of worms in this "climate," being able to do accurate barrel work would be a plus. The limited spindle bore might negate some jobs, but I'm ok with that.

I did locate an original steady rest too. The one I had previously was home made from a large diameter bearing and some aluminum stock.

I'll get some new pictures, but in the short term I did find more old pictures showing the lathe on it's old bench back when I was considering selling it. These show the current gear-train cover, the old steady rest, and a bunch of other features. Most all of it is coming over to the new stand, there's just going to be more room around the machine and better access to the motor and jack-shaft. I'm also on the look-out for an original cast belt cover for motor.

And some more. Sorry so many of these pictures came out fuzzy. The old drawers are long gone, but give an idea of some of the tooling.

The old recipt from Oct. 20, 1964 with all of the turret lathe add-on's. Note that it read's Lease Contract. I'm thinking he made some stuff for them in exchange for the lathe? The original South Bend card doesn't shed much light on this, but another possibility is that Gould originally bought the lathe for themselves, then worked out the deal with Irwin, but if that's the case they didn't have it long as the SB card is dated Dec. 10, 1963. Not sure what "Wills 33-10" equates to in the 'Sold to' columb of the serial number card.


Converting the PDF to an image seems to have omitted some information (although it was already pretty sparse) Missing from the image above: Your Order Number 1288, Serial Number 51245 N, Catalog No. PT1W3NK5, Size 9x3 Bed. All the other fields are blank. The Catalog number makes no sense to me, but it's as it appears on the card. The back of the card just has codes for the bed and saddle. Not clear bellow, but the tag is stamped 'CL744Y' which makes it a threaded nose, 9" Model A, 16-Speed, V-belt bench lathe, Horizontal Motor Drive, with 3' bed. All that makes sense.

Here's some current pictures. Other than working on the new bench, it's been a long time since I've played around with this 9" mechanically.

I opened up the gear train and it's definitely aftermarket. It's well done but too rough to be OEM. The stock gears, banjo, and selector are all there. It looks like the only advantage Is that it's totally inclosed. All the gears had to come off to remove the covers.

The aluminum lever moves a fork inside the cover that works a pin on the old selector, which has had the stock handle cut and ground off, so the lever motion is inverted. The knob in the middle of the lever works to clamp the selector in place, and there's a couple limiting set screws to avoid over engaging the gears. It works nicely, but really limits access to the gears.




So to go back to factory, all I'll need is the gear guard, hinge bracket, 'C' guard behind the banjo, selector clamping bolt, and either replace the selector casting, or add a handle to this one.

Finding these parts shouldn't be hard. It's a minor detail, but what tags would have been present on an early 1960's Model A 9"?

It's pretty neato knowing some of the history behind how your lathe lived in it's earlier days . I look just as much at the backgrounds on folk's pictures as I do the intended things . What are the units on the pallet rack to the right of the lathe in pic 3 in the post before this ?
Thanks for sharing Good luck with your project .
animal

animal12 said:

It's pretty neato knowing some of the history behind how your lathe lived in it's earlier days . I look just as much at the backgrounds on folk's pictures as I do the intended things . What are teh unhits on the pallet rack to the right of the lathe in pic 3 in the post before this ?
Thanks for sharing Good luck with your project .
animal

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Post #12 pic. 3? Those are some old foot powered stamping presses that were used with electric heat to emboss leather. Don't know if I have any better pics of them. I think they ended up in the pile as they were missing alot, old competition, and had been obsolete for 50+ years. Ended up cheaper to build our own new machines. On the floor just in front of them are some gold colored Juki sewing machine heads. Those all ended up fixed and sold on new tables. We used to do a lot more used and rebuilt machine sales (all industrial leatherworking machines). Still do, but lately it's been more new stuff.

On edit: Found some pics of the press's. These things had some heavy iron castings, which ended up being a drawback since they had a comparatively small work envelope and foot power limits it's use to non-production. Most prefer hydraulic/pneumatic nowadays as in addition to being faster and less laborious, they can be set up for more consistent stamps using a dwell timer (heat, pressure, and time are all variables effecting leather embossing). Not as many Old-'arn enthusiasts in the leatherworking community, I find. Even less common to find them that have the skill and desire to fix and support their own machines, unlike the metalworking community where the two go hand-in-hand. I save a lot of stuff for our own physical archive, but with limited space often give precedence to machines we made ourselves long ago. Someday I'll do a thread on them.


Speaking of stuff in the back-ground, the green table to the right in the picture above was a neat piece that while it got parted out, I saved the legs. It's just an old pine 2x4 bench essentially, but built with mortised joints, square head bolts, and cross drilled for the nuts. That style of shop furniture construction you don't see often anymore, but was once as common as plywood and decking screws are today. Makes for a simple but solid "period" design without nails or screws in the framing. Anytime I'm building a wood bench now I'll try to emulate it, if not work in some of the legs, tops, and drawers I've saved over the years.

In regards to the paint, does anyone know if South Bend used a silver in the 1960's? I think that's what this was and it just turned copper'y brown over the years. I ask as I've seen some other 9" South Bends with the same color and curious if it was original or just a sale at Sherwin Williams. Some surface parts are a little more sloppy so it could have been a later repaint, but the way EVERYTHING is painted with some of the smaller details done on interior pieces has me curious.

Also wondering if anyone knows what style of motor belt guard was being used in the early 60's? It seems that at most only 1/4 of South Bends have or had the belt guard, but I'd like one on mine. Of the two styles, I assume that the round "target" slot pattern was an earlier design and the parallel slot pattern was a later design, but not sure when they switched.

In regards to the gear guard, looking at what's out there I THINK (correct me if I'm wrong) that this lathe would have had two tags on it, a larger tag on the outside depicting how to arrange gears, or maybe a lubrication chart, and a small one by the headstock advising to loosen belt when the lathe isn't in use. Is that right? I'm still learning how this lathe with it's features fits into the generations. My other South Bend is a 1943 Heavy 10, so some similarities but lots of differences too. I find it interesting that this one doesn't have the leveling screw set-up under the tailstock side of the bed, but I assume that's because a bench lathe could be set-up 1000 different ways so they're leaving it up to the owner to keep the bed straight.

These are obviously cosmetic details that have little to no bearing on the machine. I'm not taking this thig to any pebble beach car shows, but if I have the option I like to know how things were before I commit to changes. Maybe I'm a little OCD....

With the headstock, I'm not sure it's ever had any oil cups on it so it's going to be one of the first assemblies I go through to be sure it isn't damaged. It has some stray holes I'd like to fill in too. The aluminum gear guards I intend to plug with threaded aluminum inserts so that I can polish them.

I used to have a pair of Logan lathes at home that I had done a lot or repairs too, but sold them to make room for other projects. We had some redundancies after merging my Dad's shop with a couple other shops we bought, and while I liked the old Logan's, I shifted my allegiance in the "Ford vs. Chevy" crowd. I remember having a lot of fun on our two South Bend's growing up.

I would keep that cool tumber reversing setup. It's pretty well engineered, and easier to use than the wrench-operated one.

M.B., regarding the 1st picture in post 16, the machine in the background to the right looks like a rivet or eyelet setting machine. Based in the stand casting, I'd bet it was made by the Edwin B. Stimpson company, of Brooklyn, NY. My father worked there for 50 years, 1st as a tool & die maker, later rising to plant manager and finally a VP after they relocated to Florida in the late 1960's. I too worked during high school and college. I know those setting machines very well. My 2 bench grinders are mounted on stands like that.

Bob-O said:

M.B., regarding the 1st picture in post 16, the machine in the background to the right looks like a rivet or eyelet setting machine. Based in the stand casting, I'd bet it was made by the Edwin B. Stimpson company, of Brooklyn, NY. My father worked there for 50 years, 1st as a tool & die maker, later rising to plant manager and finally a VP after they relocated to Florida in the late 1960's. I too worked during high school and college. I know those setting machines very well. My 2 bench grinders are mounted on stands like that.

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Good eye! Yep we still work on a lot of those old Stimpson's. Not sure how their company history played out, but they're still built/rebuilt/supported by Siska. Good machines and Siska has been a good company to partner with. The track between the bell and the pockets is the most valuable part of the machine. We get lots of requests for C125 rivets, and if we don't have a track for that size we can't put a machine together. Sometimes we can have them modify a track, but with all the custom fitting involved, the price tag starts steering people towards new European machines. We won't mess with cheap Chinese riveters. We get enough grief as it is with customer trying to feed their machines cheap fasteners and listening to them gripe about the output.