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Another motor/switch question 1959 10K

Anatol

Aluminum
Joined
Jan 19, 2018
Location
Los Angeles
Hi
the 10K (rear-motor) I'm refurbishing has the odd pieces-of-gear and long lever switch arrangement. Switch has forward, off, reverse, settings but motor does not work in reverse. The existence of reverse on the switch would suggest it was reversible a some time. Switch wiring seems to indicate reverse is not wired up.
Newbie questions - how much would i use reverse anyway? Should I just abandon the switch and add a simpler switch in a more convenient place? Don't know if the motor is reversible. I'm attaching pics of swtich, wiring and motor spec plate.
thanks for any advice
A
 

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Don't know if the motor is reversible ? it is as the tag states revues T5 & T8 if the wiring has not been messed with it could be that there is a timing problem with your linkage one way to find out would be to remove or get one of the two gears out of the way of the other and turn the switch by its self and see if you have off , forward and reverse and if you do then you know that its not the switch per say and if it works and you must take it apart mark every thing so you won't have to ask how to rewire it [there's be a rash of them on here lately ]
 
Read motor data tag.

Thanks, I did. (I've been around electric motors a bit.) There's no indication on the tag that it is reversible(unless its in code). I can't find a data/spec sheet. But I did find attached wiring diagram. Its clearly reversible. So yes, I'd be grateful for a diagram that would indicate how to wire the Cutler Hammer switch into the motor so I could activate the reverse function.

It would appear, the PO, who owned it for I would assume, 30 years, had it wired with no reverse. This seems odd to me. Can anyone suggest why he would have chosen not to have motor reverse?

thanks again
A.
BTW What do I have to do to graduate from being 'plastic' ? I don't want to be plastic. ;)lr22132-wiring-diagram.jpg
 
Read motor data tag.

There's no indication on the tag that it is reversible(unless its in code). I can't find a data sheet. But I did find attached wiring diagram. Also saw a spec list that says "rotation CW/CCW" so its clearly reversible - in principle. And I would assume that with the relevant switch one could change direction via a switch. So yes, I'd be grateful for a diagram that would indicate how to wire the Cutler Hammer switch into the motor so I could activate the reverse function.

The PO (deceased) owned it for, I assume, 30 years. He had it wired with no reverse. This seems odd to me. Can anyone suggest why he would have chosen not to have motor reverse?

thanks again
A.
BTW What do I have to do to graduate from being 'plastic' ? I don't want to be plastic. ;)View attachment 324240
 
There is one sentence on the data tag, right hand side, about halfway down, its kinda fuzzy in your pic, maybe you can read it to us.

Not sure what the diagram is from, don't think its going to help with wiring reversing drum switch.
 
So yes, I'd be grateful for a diagram that would indicate how to wire the Cutler Hammer switch into the motor so I could activate the reverse function.

I can't just hand you a diagram, as you have not provided the necessary information. Your next step/lesson, is to figure out if you have the right switch that will allow you to achieve reverse. Watch this vid
Drum Switch Types - YouTube

If I had a diagram, I would not give it to you, not out of meanness, but because until you understand what you are doing, you should not be f'n with electricity. Watch vid, map the switch, come back and show us what you learned:)

As for why its not currently wired for reverse, most likely because motor was changed from 3ph to single phase, and its not the right switch for single phase. If it is the right switch, its because people have a hard time wrapping their head around how to wire it.
 
Contrite apologies to dalmatiangirl, 1yesca and all. I read the tag several time and I have no idea how I missed the T5/T8 note on it. DOH! Maybe I need new glasses - actualy I know I do, just went to the optometrist. Getting old sucks.

1yesca - the mechanics of the switch work fine, and if you look closely at the image of the switch wiring, you'll see that 2 of the 6 terminals are not not used. That's a dead giveaway.

I wrote a long reply and then the forum told me I wasn't logged in and I lost it. (That's annoying). So -
Google found me a diagram in a practical machinist thread on just this topic. Gotta love google, I'm afraid.
Useful thread is here - Wiring Help Needed Baldor .5 hp to Cutler Hammer Drum Switch
And here are two useful diagrams. As I thought, there would have to be more than 3 wires form switch to motor to operate reversing. Slightly confusingly, one shows 5 wires and one shows 6. I guess I need to pull out the multimeter and draw some diagrams.
CH Rev Drum SW 1 Ph.jpgSINGLE PHASE DRUM SW.jpg
 
If I had a diagram, I would not give it to you, not out of meanness, but because until you understand what you are doing, you should not be f'n with electricity. Watch vid, map the switch, come back and show us what you learned:)

As for why its not currently wired for reverse, most likely because motor was changed from 3ph to single phase, and its not the right switch for single phase. If it is the right switch, its because people have a hard time wrapping their head around how to wire it.

re - "until you understand what you are doing" - thanks for your concern for my health and safety :)
I may sound like a rube but I've been building custom electronic and electromechanical systems for over 30 years, including custom wiring capacitor start AC motors. And have had or seen enough stupid accidents to be very cautious. Its just that in a moment of weird blindness I missed the T5 T8 note.

"As for why its not currently wired for reverse, most likely because motor was changed from 3ph to single phase, and its not the right switch for single phase"

Nice point. I have no way of knowing if it ever had a 3 phase motor, but I need to spec the switch to make sure its not a repurposed 3 phase switch. I don't think it is. SN seems to be 30-1420

Here, via Google back to PM is another thread discussing the same switch I have. And a pic of a sticker mine does not have in inside the switch cover cover saying its good for single phase 110.
Help Please ~ Wiring the Switch to the motor

But! here in that thread is an answer to my other question - and it should have occurred to me:

"... I try to never run mine in reverse, it's an accident waiting to happen on a threaded spindle. There are way around it, like using a lock washer on the spindle thread, but that is a PITA also..."


Any opinions on this? Who has had a chuck unscrew itself in reverse? Yeah, having the chuck jump into your lap would be undesirable...especially it it had sharp workpiece in it

Maybe I'll stick with the current wiring...


Switch#1.jpgInsideCover.jpg
 
Back the truck up here for a second. In order to have success at wiring a single phase motor with reversing capability, you have to understand what you're doing.

There are two winding sets in the motor--a "run" winding and a "start" winding. A single phase motor can't start itself so an auxiliary winding is put in there to help get the motor spinning. The start winding is wired in parallel with the run winding and then switched out of the circuit by the centrifugal starting switch. Depending on which way the start winding leads are paralleled with the run winding leads the motor will start and run clockwise or counter-clockwise.

The job of the rotary switch is to make it so that you and easily parallel the start and run windings one way or the other to achieve forward and reverse. IF the switch is correct for a single phase motor, the contacts are set up so that the run winding is always engaged the same way regardless of the way the switch is set. The other contacts connect the start winding one way or the other so you can have the motor run one way or the other. If the switch does not have contacts inside it to make this possible then it can't reverse the direction of a single phase motor. However, most rotary switches of this type have the contacts set that way and will work properly. You just have to connect the wires from the motor correctly.

Given your experience with motors and electronic things, I'm a bit surprised you haven't run into this before.
 
There's no indication on the tag that it is reversible(unless its in code). I can't find a data sheet. But I did find attached wiring diagram. Also saw a spec list that says "rotation CW/CCW" so its clearly reversible - in principle. And I would assume that with the relevant switch one could change direction via a switch. So yes, I'd be grateful for a diagram that would indicate how to wire the Cutler Hammer switch into the motor so I could activate the reverse function.

The PO (deceased) owned it for, I assume, 30 years. He had it wired with no reverse. This seems odd to me. Can anyone suggest why he would have chosen not to have motor reverse?

thanks again
A.
BTW What do I have to do to graduate from being 'plastic' ? I don't want to be plastic. ;)View attachment 324240

it is as clear as day on the id plate right hand side in the middle " CW ROTATION FACING SHAFT AS SHOWN INTERCHANGE T5 & T8 FOR CCW ROTATION" or in short to to revues rotation revues wires t5 & t8 and i don't know what that wiring diagram is from but its not from that lathe maybe some washing machine


10K motor.jpg
 
I could care less about your health and safety, I'm worried about the motor, it is the innocent one. Quit googling looking for an easy answer, break out the ohmmeter and map the switch. Did you watch the vid? What kind of switch do you have?

I've had a threaded spindle nose lathe with reverse capability, I personally never spun a chuck off, but I'd bet a careless person could do it. As for putting a lockwasher behind the chuck, wtf?????
 
Dobermann, thanks for the single phase cap start AC motor winding refresher. Very clear explanation. I knew all this in general, but its been a while for this specific kind of motor. I hadn't thought through the config of (this particular) rotary switch, having never seen one like it. It does have some semi-permanent jumpers wired in, so the next thing I do will be to trace it in all positions.

As noted, I'm rebuilding a machine I bought from a deceased estate and have no idea of the history, nor why someone chose to wire a reversible motor to a reverse capable switch with forward only wiring.
A

Back the truck up here for a second. In order to have success at wiring a single phase motor with reversing capability, you have to understand what you're doing.

There are two winding sets in the motor--a "run" winding and a "start" winding. A single phase motor can't start itself so an auxiliary winding is put in there to help get the motor spinning. The start winding is wired in parallel with the run winding and then switched out of the circuit by the centrifugal starting switch. Depending on which way the start winding leads are paralleled with the run winding leads the motor will start and run clockwise or counter-clockwise.

The job of the rotary switch is to make it so that you and easily parallel the start and run windings one way or the other to achieve forward and reverse. IF the switch is correct for a single phase motor, the contacts are set up so that the run winding is always engaged the same way regardless of the way the switch is set. The other contacts connect the start winding one way or the other so you can have the motor run one way or the other. If the switch does not have contacts inside it to make this possible then it can't reverse the direction of a single phase motor. However, most rotary switches of this type have the contacts set that way and will work properly. You just have to connect the wires from the motor correctly.

Given your experience with motors and electronic things, I'm a bit surprised you haven't run into this before.
 
Dalmatiangirl and 1yesca
thanks for your advice and please stop the negative remarks. As noted in post 8 in this thread:

"Contrite apologies to dalmatiangirl, 1yesca and all. I read the tag several time and I have no idea how I missed the T5/T8 note on it. DOH! Maybe I need new glasses - actualy I know I do, just went to the optometrist. Getting old sucks."
 
I do not feel I have made negative remarks, but clearly you perceive it that way, I'm not sure why. I have asked repeatedly for a map/diagram of your switch, if you are not willing to do 5 minutes of work/thought to answer that question, it is impossible to help you.

My question for you, why do the new people think there is some magical diagram we can pull out of our ___ and hand you?

I work on electrical stuff every day, but I'm clearly not an electrician, I muddle thru it with an ohmmeter and pen and paper, nothing gets energized until I'm 100% sure that what is on paper is correct.
 
Anatol- I'm sorry you seem to be getting the runaround from folks here- I think you gave us enough info to help you in that first set of images. In particular, we can see that the switch is a standard triple-pole, double-throw, with jumpers soldered on. Unfortunately, someone has apparently removed one of the jumpers (note the solder blob and missing screw on one of the terminals).

I wonder, did you tell us if you want to use this motor on 110V or 220V?

allan
 
Anatol- I'm sorry you seem to be getting the runaround from folks here- I think you gave us enough info to help you in that first set of images. In particular, we can see that the switch is a standard triple-pole, double-throw, with jumpers soldered on. Unfortunately, someone has apparently removed one of the jumpers (note the solder blob and missing screw on one of the terminals).

I wonder, did you tell us if you want to use this motor on 110V or 220V?

allan

i would have to 2nd. what Dalmatiangirl had to say . we would like nothing more then to help this guy out but if he will not help himself how can we help him . "someone has apparently removed one of the jumpers (note the solder blob and missing screw on one of the terminals)" wrong this is a cutler hammer drum switch ! have you ever wired one ? well i have and i can tell you there is nothing wrong with that switch as far as the jumpers go and if you don't think so then just take a look at Dalmatiangirl post it shows the switch in a circuit and as you can see in the op photo of his cutler hammer switch there are three jumpers. the one at the top [gear shaft end]that goes straight across [one side to the other]and then there are the other two that criss cross [on one side the jumper starts in the middle and on the other side it is on the bottom and vise versa for the other jumper] so there are you three jumpers and they are all there . one last thing i will offer for the op if like you say you are restoring this machine and if you have the time why not remove the motor and the switch and on a bench wire the motor up by it self with out the switch to get a better understanding of how it works and switch T5 & T8 around and if all goes well then start working with the switch and if you get it to do what you want then show us what you came up with that's how i do it when i want to wire a drum switch i have used the furnace and the cutler hammer i have two post on here about two south bend 10 heavy's that i cleaned up and sold one with the furnace one with the cutler hammer i wish i could look at my notes but i keep none when i am done with something i am done and if tomorrow i needed to wire a drum switch i would just lay it out and start from the beginning but one thing is for sure when i was done it would work and you can do the same
 
I know what kind of switch it is, thanks. I'm one of the folks that posted diagrams in the original threads the OP mentioned. I am also one of the people that has posted dozens and dozens of diagrams on this forum over the years. I invite you to go back and look at the original image of the switch in the first post. It appears to me that one of the crossing jumpers has been removed. If so, it will likely need to be replace to make reversing work, or maybe not. It depends on if the OP is using 110 or 220. The latter is easier to wire, and does not need all the jumpers that CH originally installed.

allan
 
Because the variation in skill level, and the variation of the motors and switches, I normally refrain from getting suckered into these discussions. But for the record here is one way to wire a motor like that if it is being run on 240:

wire.jpg


It has the advantages that it completely disconnects power when in the off position, and uses a bare minium of leads between the switch and the motor, often a troublesome issue.
 
Because the variation in skill level, and the variation of the motors and switches, I normally refrain from getting suckered into these discussions. But for the record here is one way to wire a motor like that if it is being run on 240:

To begin with, the op never told us what voltage he wanted to use. I don't get it, I've tried to help people understand what they are doing, but time and time again the op's of these threads think that a simple diagram is the answer. I cannot look at a rotary drum switch and tell if its a single phase or 3 phase switch, I have to map it and draw it out. The op's of these threads don't know what they have either, and when we ask them to tell us the general response is "Don't make me think, just give me the damned diagram". If they cannot map the switch to figure out what it is doing, how can they possibly understand further instruction on how to wire it properly?

Clearly my method of trying to make them think is failing, if any of you has a better method of instruction, go for it, I'm done.
 








 
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