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Why can't/aren't SB "type" lathes, manufactured today?

tobnpr

Hot Rolled
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
South Bend lathes have withstood the test of time because they were well built, extremely simple, and accurate.

As I look at mine, I constantly wonder what precludes the exact design of those from the 50's through the 80's from being duplicated today, at a reasonable cost?

I'm assumingsomething about one or more of the manufacturing processes required would be cost prohibitive, but damned if I can figure out what it would be...

I know Grizzly tried something like this with their re-make of the H10- and I've heard that was one hell of a fine machine- but not like the originals with many modern "upgrades" like inverter powered motor, etc. I think Grizzly would have had a successful product, had they stuck with the old "ways". Why not just go back to a simple, line-bored, cast iron headstock and belt drive?

Why would these old designs, cost more to manufacture? I realize that there are those that prefer geared head machines- but one of the attractive features of the belt drives is adequate power for home shops as well as light job shops- and the fact that chucking up usually won't cause severe damage to the machine.
 
one reason I'm guessin is most folks lookin for a lathe today want all the bell's & whistles & a plain bearing headstock don't go ring-ding
they would think a chinese one with a bearing head-stock would have to be a much better lathe
animal
 
Ask at Grizzly , they still have them made and sell them.

So,,, I don't really get your point. Since SB clones are still being made and all...
 
most "clones" havent been made for 50 years.
I dont think any have been made in at least 20 years.

This question is kind of like asking why Ford doesnt still make Model Ts.

One thing to remember- the annual sales of small manual lathes during the heyday of South bend, the 30s thru the 60s, was much much higher than today. Small businesses bought lots of em, but today, one CNC lathe can match the output of a couple dozen manually run, 8 hour a day shifts of 10ks.
There isnt a market for enough volume to make them anywhere near affordable.
 
To the OP: reason is money.

It is not hard technically to make SB-type basic small lathes of medium quality and rigidity.

But current chinese lathes of 1-2 sizes larger have excellent tir, mrr, power, and overall volumetric accuracy.
So the 3-5k$ chinese 12-13" sized lathe will be more rigid, better mrr, more powerful, have power feeds x,z, for that 5k$ budget, more or less.
This caps the possible max price around 5k$.
For anything upto 13" in swing.

A Schaublin 9x lathe, new, swiss, costs == 54.000$.
A 11" Monarch 10EE == 104.000$.

If one made a mediocre SB type lathe for 3000$, almost no-one would buy one, since great 13" chinese lathes are widely available.

At 3000$ retail the manufacturer could not make the 50% margin needed for technical service and support of a "good" product.

Schaublin went bankrupt twice for this reason.

If one made economy sb gearboxes the chinese 12-13" would be better, bigger, more robust due to pwr3 in mechanics vs size.
If one made precision gearboxes the lathe would cost 6-9k to make and 18-25k out the door, retail.

Electronics are cheap, but a good lathe == Schaublin, Rivett, Weiler, Monarch costs == 4-3-6k in parts cost sans gb, qty 100.
Economics dictate a 12-18k$ finished price.+

Grizzly used to have a 30.000$ ultra precision lathe of 1 micron tir available, 11-12".
Similar to a Monarch 10EE, in theory. Or sharp (clone) or hardinge hlvh.
Discontinued.
Because almost no-one will buy one, since 8-14k$ 13-14" import lathes are almost as good, and just need 12" wider and deeper space.

I once wanted to make small (ultra) precision lathes, invested lots into it.
The competition and market is Moore Nanotech lathes, not SB.
 
most "clones" havent been made for 50 years.
I dont think any have been made in at least 20 years.

This question is kind of like asking why Ford doesnt still make Model Ts.

One thing to remember- the annual sales of small manual lathes during the heyday of South bend, the 30s thru the 60s, was much much higher than today. Small businesses bought lots of em, but today, one CNC lathe can match the output of a couple dozen manually run, 8 hour a day shifts of 10ks.
There isnt a market for enough volume to make them anywhere near affordable.

Understood, but different markets for larger job shops, vs. hobbyist/"light" commercial/gunsmithing uses.
The web, has allowed many without formal machinist training to self-learn machining, be it lathe or mill...

So while the commercial uses of manual machinery has largely gone by the wayside in favor of NC machines, it has been at least partially offset on the "other" side. This is why demand and prices for used SB's and smaller machines (at least those that can be found in still decent, serviceable condition) have skyrocketed.

9A's, 10's go for more than than 13 and 16 inch swing models, because of smaller footprint/easier transport, disassembly if needed, and generally lack of need for large swing machines in that arena.


I was just thinking about the relatively small pile of parts after I completely disassembled/reassembled mine, and thought there were less parts, and simpler design, than chinese/taiwanese geared head machines and would be less expensive to produce.
 
Part of the problem is that the USA, and to a much lesser degree the UK and a few ex-colonies thereof, are the only places where hobby types exist in any quantity.
Its a very limited market, worldwide, and its getting smaller every year- I know my friends with lathes in the basement die almost monthly.
Kids today dont want an SB.
My kids live in shared apartments, move a lot, and have no interest in accumulating much of anything- and they are pretty typical of 20 somethings today.

So- globally- no market.
In the USA- diminishing market.

And "retro" stuff always costs MORE to make than simple modern tools using widely available off the shelf commercial parts.
The Taiwan/Chinese lathes have dozens, quite likely hundreds, of factories turning out parts.
Nobody is making SB type parts, and would, at current likely volumes, charge quite a bit for em.
It would be MORE expensive to produce, not less.
And very few people bought them new at 2000 prices, much less today's prices.

Sure, somebody could make one- but, as Hanermo says, it would probably push 20 grand.
They made the heavy 10 until 2003, I think they were close to fifteen grand then.
There is a reason that, starting in the 70s, South Bend itself was shifting more and more to more modern lathe designs, mostly made in Taiwan, Korea, and even europe.
People will buy used South Bends for 3 grand, sure- but thats not what they would cost to make new today, even in China. Maybe if you would commit to buying a hundred thousand of them a year, you could get em down to five or six grand each...
 
Back in the day grinders sought to be the best because that sold machines. Lathes also targeted that because reputation was so important.
Today the same size machine in best quality often sell for 4x times the bargain brand..but they are hard to sell because throw -away and that-is-good- enough it often considered.
Plus carbide and diamond tooling cutting hard parts so chips are more like grinding dust eats up a machine so they wont be a life-time machine made the old way. This increasing the throw away attitude..

Good modern CNC lathes are enclosing the works and design to wash chips makes them somewhat protected.
 
As of this writing, Grizzly lists the $26K HLV clone - it comes and goes, presumably as batches arrive and are sold.
I have their "southbend" 14x40 and it's been just fine for everything we (I and the roboteers who get to use it) have thrown at it.

So now, why would I pay big $$ for an SB clone? I'm crazy and stupid, but not that crazy and stupid. Note that for the kinds of prices Ries and Hanermo note above, you are well on the way to entry level CNC machines, some with reasonably user friendly controls for "manual" style work.

I think too (from some direct observation as well as reading) that the class of person who maybe wanted a small lathe and small mill in prior decades, wants a 3D printer, and good pricing on an account at a rapid prototype shop.
 
Carbide is so cheap and so much better that you can't make a plain headstock lathe and expect it to be useful professionally.

Bearings got cheaper, motors got cheaper, electronics got cheaper. Motors got cheaper. Gears, lead screws and clutches? Not so much. Copying an 80 year old design does nothing to leverage the realities of the world where we live now.

The kids looking for a toy buy the 7" stuff. Gunsmiths looking for a tool buy perfectly fine imports that take advantage of mass produced bearings etc. Production of all quantities is on CNC. Old farts looking to relive their glory days in the garage is a market that's already well served.

A south bend is okay as far as it goes (I have a 16" that hasn't done anything in years) but let's not delude ourselves that they were ever the peak of accuracy or build quality.
 
Here is a why. From 1923.

http://www.wswells.com/data/catalog/79JR/cat_79jr.pdf

In their seventeenth year they were up to 500 a month - 6000 a year. Almost none going to "hobbyists" - who had no money - and even less "spare time".

The least expensive was 162 bucks (half a new Ford) and the most expensive was over 1400 bucks, or four new Fords

Henry Ford, over in Dearborn, was showing every one how it was done with 73,000 a month going out the door (I base that on the 15 million Model Ts built and sold from 1908 to 1927)

Volume makes economy.

How close would you come to 500 a month?

Maybe you could sell them at a little profit if you were able to sell 250 a month - which is a giant stretch. I expect reality would be less than 25 a month. Say it was only a little worse and you sold one every other day for 4000 bucks. That is a paltry 730K gross in a year - blown thru easily with only 15 employees making but 50K - leaving all other obligations UNPAID
 
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Part of the problem is that the USA, and to a much lesser degree the UK and a few ex-colonies thereof, are the only places where hobby types exist in any quantity.

I always had the impression that the UK had basement hobbyist types 2-1 to the USA. I thought it had to do with the education system where "skilled trades" were a more accepted career path in society. I have no idea where I picked this up (jeeze probably the movies!) but it seems that you are saying it is not true.
 
The demand for used SBs is very strong. I’ve sold a few over the years, as well as other old lathes in the under 12” hobby category. With few exceptions, the buyers have been men in their 30s and 40s. They were delighted to get them, and they paid serious money for the privilege.
If i could get my hands on enough, I am confident I could sell 5 per month locally without a lot of effort. Not making a case for new production, just pointing out the younger generation IS buying manual lathes.
 
The demand for used SBs is very strong. I’ve sold a few over the years, as well as other old lathes in the under 12” hobby category. With few exceptions, the buyers have been men in their 30s and 40s. They were delighted to get them, and they paid serious money for the privilege.
If i could get my hands on enough, I am confident I could sell 5 per month locally without a lot of effort. Not making a case for new production, just pointing out the younger generation IS buying manual lathes.

This is true- as long as the price is very very low, well below cost of manufacture.
 
This is true- as long as the price is very very low, well below cost of manufacture.

I guess it depends on what you consider low. In my area, a 9A, 10K, or 10L will bring $1700- 3500, clean, with normal wear, and basic tooling. I doubt one could build a new one for that, true enough. But as good examples become harder to find, the price goes up.
 
I guess it depends on what you consider low. In my area, a 9A, 10K, or 10L will bring $1700- 3500, clean, with normal wear, and basic tooling. I doubt one could build a new one for that, true enough. But as good examples become harder to find, the price goes up.

That's it?
 








 
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