a bit of a rant, but on topic - sellers with unreal expectations of value

because i`m a glutton for punishment i went and looked at a 10L that was advertised locally - "the nicest one i`ve seen" according to the ad.

i get there and it`s on the floor, no drive,no motor, missing parts, unfunctional apron, lots of rust, compound is unsalvagable(ways were BEAT- literally)). small dials mangled by vise grips.
it had a taper attachment(missing tie rod and bed clamp and assorted hardware),a collet closer and a box of rusted-up collets.

but overall, it would be one that is worth bringing back - gears in good shape, spindle feels ok, halfnuts look good( but you can`t use them because the apron is partially frozen)
gearbox seems to function, not too much obvious bed wear.

and all this can be yours for two grand....firm.

have fun!

I have to say I agree with you but you do have to admit that we have brought some of this on ourselves. Somehow, being part of the "South Bend" fraternity (or sorority) has almost a cult feel to it. It may be partly due to the fact that there are so many South Bends out there and they're readily available on the eBay and Craigslist market that we have folks who "always wanted a lathe" shopping for them without having any experience running one beyond the few minutes spent in shop class. As a result they don't know the perils and pitfalls of lathe operation and...let's face it...this being a mostly male - oriented hobby .....are very reluctant to ask for advice from someone who knows a thing or two about lathes in general and South Bends in particular. It's the old "never ask for directions" thing.

I think that you'd also find there's a segment of the population now thinking that there's money to be made "flipping" a South Bend, much like the house "flipping" that was going on during the heyday of the real estate market. There's no cure for it that I can think of but it does seem to be driving the market to just plain silly heights.

I nearly got caught up in this a few years ago when I bought my Heavy 10. It was (still is) a beautiful machine with all new badges, late model QC gearbox, beautiful hardened ways that had been re-ground, fully functional taper attachment, good tubular cabinet, etc. However, after using it for a while and getting all the relevant information from South Bend, it turns out it's a bit of a Frankenlathe with a segmented iron bearing headstock which means early 1940's, a bed from 1958 (from the serial number) a tailstock ram screw and handle from a Workshop 9, and so on. It had a single phase motor but the "owner" or "flipper" in my case didn't know how to wire the switch correctly so it would only run in the forward direction.

Fortunately for me, the whole package has worked very well and the headstock bearings are near-perfect, the compound has never been touched by chuck jaws, and the spindle to bed alignment is very good. I was able to make a new tailstock screw and handle to more nearly match the original stuff.

But I was lucky and I've been running South Bend lathes for more than 50 years so I should have known better. The price I paid was a bit higher than the lathe you write about but not much. Fortunately I did get my money's worth but not everyone is so lucky. So.....the bottom line is that if you're gonna consider buying a lathe and you don't know what you're doing and even if you think you do know, get some advice from someone else who knows and can look at your "treasure" with a less emotional eye!

I have seen this same kind of crap many, many times in many different items. Some sellers are what we call "Rug Merchants". They think their stuff (when selling) is worth 10x what it is actually worth, and they think your stuff (when THEY are buying) is worthless. I have weht through this same scenario many times with some of the other stuff I collect. It is also a good indication that seller doesn't have a clue what they are selling or what it is really worth. They just think because it is what it is that it is worth big bucks.................

I'm totally with you on this one! ! ! !

Chad, sorry to hear about your experience. I have seen this same thing many times myself and yea there is a a lot of truth to the South Bend and other machine so called flipper mentality. Guys are all over Ebay selling steady rests and stuff for $200-$500 for something that before Ebay would have brought $50-$75 at most or they would never have bought them to start with.
I was very happy when you priced the 9" lathe you sold me and your description was spot on, but you are not the average seller that I have run across, just a more realistic, more honest one.

If someone doesn't have a good idea how their sales item compares to other sales items, then the safe way is to price it high. If it sells, then the price was right to one buyer. There's a fine line between pricing something to sell, and pricing it so it will never sell. If all the seller knows about something is what it says on the nameplate, and he doesn't know a lathe from a post hole digger, when if doubt, its in A-1 condition.

Machinery dealers sell tools at the upper end of value, but they know that scrap doesn't sell to professional users, so they have to pick and choose their inventory. The problem sellers are the folks who don't have a clue what a tool is worth.

We've all heard about, and sometimes even stumbled onto, the proverbial garage sale DEAL OF THE CENTURY. Many years ago, I bought an entire railroad round house worth of diesel locomotive tools for $ 65. My competition was a scrap dumpster, plus the railroad had to load the dumpster. They were happy, I was happy. A deal of the century does happen.

We've all taken a bite of a sweet deal that turned out to be sour - When you find a less-than-wonderful machine tool, you have to learn how to feel the seller out, and if they seem rooted to their price, then walk away. After they see that it isn't selling, they may cut the price to something a little more realistic, or be willing to talk a bit.

iwananew10K said:

... "the nicest one i`ve seen"

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Guess it's the ONLY one he's ever seen.

Steve

Yes we have brought it on ourselves. It shows in the prices for machines and parts also. I need the original carriage lock bolt for my 10k to replace the unoriginal allen head bolt. So I go on ebay and the only way to get it is buying the entire screw and block for $30 on up...all for a simple screw. Guess I'll keep my 30 cent allen screw! Even auction machines are now subject to it. That was the last place to find deals on SBs, but even that is disappearing fast.

vandis said:

I think that you'd also find there's a segment of the population now thinking that there's money to be made "flipping" a South Bend, much like the house "flipping" that was going on during the heyday of the real estate market. There's no cure for it that I can think of but it does seem to be driving the market to just plain silly heights.

Click to expand...

Speaking as someone who's flipped a half dozen or so South Bend lathes (and parted out several more), I'd respectfully disagree. It's buyers who set market prices, not sellers.

Most of the lathes I've flipped have come from estates or auctions where a buyer would have to be at the right time and place with cash in hand.

I've bought them, invested some time and money inspecting, cleaning, adjusting, and replacing parts as needed and made them readily available to a wider audience at their convenience.

Have they all sold for more than I paid? Yes.
I usually ask a bit more than I expect to get, but at the end of the day, they're "worth" only what buyers are willing to pay.

I run into those "dope smokers" here all the time. Like the lady with the 9c for $2500 - her nephew looked up lathes on the internet "and that's what they was going for". With people like that, I write an offer and my phone number on a piece of paper and walk away. At "two grand firm", he'd better get to liking that machine, because he'll have it for a long time.

I can understand a bit of the frustration when you look at a machine that won't measure up to it's hype. However the machine belongs to someone else and if they want to ask $2.oo or $200,00.00 for it that is totally up to them, don't mean you have to buy it. If the person is way off base with their expectations on value, tell them so and walk away. The world, and especially the machine world is full of disappointments, get up and carry on.

tailstock said:

If the person is way off base with their expectations on value, tell them so and walk away.

Click to expand...

I was at an estate sale and they were asking $125 for a small tabletop Craftsman drill press. I TRIED to tell them that it was way too high, (new, they were $79 and on sale $69), but their reaction was roughly "you don't understand, we know what we're doing, go away", which to me, given that they are supposed to be getting their client the maximum amount of money, is tantamount to malpractice.

They also have a "Chicago Pneumatic" air wrench priced higher than a "Blue Point".

Steve

Just an FYI; Chicago Pneumatic is NOT a Harbor Freight brand. That would be Central Pneumatic. Chicago Pneumatic makes good air tools.

Or, then, you get the deal that "seems" to be too good to be true...........................

I was looking for a lathe to replace my old Barnes 13, and when I wasn't looking a "too good to be true" deal pops up. The son of one of my neighbors came up to me and asked me if I would be interested in buying some of "Dad's" tools. He said that he would really like to somewhat "keep them in the family" and I have known them all of my life.

He set all of the prices and I didn't quibble with him as the prices were on the way low side because we have known each other just about forever. He offered me the Heavy 10 lathe for the amazing price of $500 with the explanation that "this lathe was Dad's pride and joy". And knowing that his father was a retired master tool and die maker I just knew there couldn't be much wrong with it other than the effects of setting idle for close to 10 years, I bought it without examining it very closely.

Well............., bend over, show bare ass and prepare for application of foot! Once I got it moved into my garage (luckily only 400'away) the revellation came...................Many dollars and many, many hours of my time later, it is once again in tip-top shape. The $500 price tag wasn't so much of a deal after all, and I would have probably been better off if I paid considerably more for a machine requiring less/no work. I do know that the son who made the deal with me was honest to the best of his knowledge. But..........I took things for granted that I shouldn't have.

I still don't know how a machinist of his father's calibre could have been content operating a machine as sloppy as that was when I bought it. I guess being 95 years old (when he died) had something to do with it.

And.............I still miss my old Barnes 13, I loved that old machine, it worked incredibly well for being 100 years old. (sellers remorse)

Frank

To me the problem is this;

"the nicest one i`ve seen"

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Well, that's an entirely subjective selling point, after all the buyer probably expects the seller to have seen a few, it's implied in that statement......yet whatever the seller has "seen" is not neccessarily what counts, as buyer's experience may differ (on this forum that's probably a given!).

If you don't think what they want for it is fair, you have to weigh up whether you really want it at that price and time.

The other morals involved in this is are if a buyer turns up and pays what the seller wants, either they find out later they could have spent less (sometimes a lot less) if they hung on and waited for a better deal from somewhere else, or they stop looking because they have what they want, price regardless, and they never get to know till they try to sell it....maybe....

However prices are at least dictated somewhat by the buyers, if it's cheap you get more buyers (flippers included) looking at it usually, if it sells real fast it was probably below the "market" price, if it's too much then you have the chance the thing will sit there until forever. Bit of a balance really.

Obviously the caveat "buyer beware" is or ought to be first on the list for any buyer. don't do the research or get impatient, and you'll pay more, usually. I have.

Also the seller can aim high, as you can always drop a price, however if you are too low, you don't get the chance to raise it to what you found out it's "worth", because it got sold...lol

I can always tell if I've priced something too low, because that item sells quick and first.

The other point I'd like to make is that if an item keeps gaining in price, either through demand or rarity or whatever, if you have one, its worth more. Don't complain, the buyers have just done you a favour.......

I think there are a lot of people who part their lathes to get more $$ from the parts.

I paid $850 for my 9A and am happy with it after tearing it down, cleaning and reassembly, but my biggest beef is with the price of all the accessories you need to buy with the lathe which already have exceeded the original cost

and, if you listen to many people on this forum, you must always buy the top quality, best stuff that costs arm and leg

aloris
a $500 chuck

I could go on and on but if you pull out a calculator, you'll see how it easily surpasses the cost of the lathe itself!

As a beginner, I think that was my biggest surprise; you need an additional part-time job just to pay for parts

I knew that from my machinist friend going into this that the lathe is just the base cost. I paid $850 for a reasonable 1942 9A but it had almost all the things I needed to start cutting. The mechanic who had it through in all the bits and pieces he could find. All he used it for for the last 20 years was cutting bronze bushings. All I have done is clean, oil, grease the lathe (It was already well oiled). I have also addes the spindle roller bearing kit and 2 shims to snug up the head stock.

Maybe this was not the deal of the century but my wife is happy I am not spending more. What makes her happy makes me Happy! Considering what I see some of the othe lathes are going for I am more than happy with what I have!

But dont forget even if a seller is asking what seems a lot it neve hurts to give a counter offer. Most people are reasonable and many expect to haggle. Be personable, patient, dont be insulting and you can quite often get that good deal! I gave the old guy and his wife a an extra $30 just because he was so helpfull in Loading the stuff into my van. Then he started showing me what else he was thinking of getting rid of. Wish I had more money with me!

70 year old mechanic, machinist, arthritis, bad back and a garage full (I mean FULL) of tools and equipmenT...I may drop by in the spring to see what else he has!

SE18 said:

I think there are a lot of people who part their lathes to get more $$ from the parts.

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My other lathe (which can't be mentioned here) would sell for maybe $800-$1,000 for the lathe and basic accessories. With all the extras (taper attachment, turret, both steadies, lever collet closer, production cross-slide and toolpost, tool post grinder, etc..), I'd be lucky to get $1,500 for it.

If I parted it out, I'm probably looking at $2,000-$3,000 or more.

Right now, I'm looking at getting stuff for the heavy 9 and it's going to cost a few bucks to end up with what I already have with the other one.

Now if I could find someone to swap part-by-part, that would be great.

SE18 said:

As a beginner, I think that was my biggest surprise; you need an additional part-time job just to pay for parts

Click to expand...

You got that right.



Steve

I sold my 9a for over $2k - BUT, it was worth everyone penny. It was in great shape and had a slew of NOS parts, accessories and new table.

SteveM said:

I was at an estate sale and they were asking $125 for a small tabletop Craftsman drill press. I TRIED to tell them that it was way too high, (new, they were $79 and on sale $69), but their reaction was roughly "you don't understand, we know what we're doing, go away", which to me, given that they are supposed to be getting their client the maximum amount of money, is tantamount to malpractice.

They also have a "Chicago Pneumatic" air wrench priced higher than a "Blue Point".

Steve

Click to expand...

The last South Bend I bought came from an estate sale. It was a pretty nice 9C. They had it marked at $1600. I'd bought a bunch of stuff from this particular company before and told them that I was interested in it, but they were way off on their price. The guy working the sale told me that the boss had "looked them up" and thought it was a fair price. There was another guy standing behind me and we both said in unison "not for that model". I ended coming back an hour before they closed on the last day of the sale... they'd marked it down to $800 by then. Unfortunately, by then, the 6 jaw chuck and the change gears had gone missing... I offered $400 and ended up buying it for $450. It probably helped that they know me and they know that I'll be back to spend more money with them. In the end, they're there to get the most money for their clients. If they over price things, you can always offer them less... the closer it gets to the end of the sale, the more flexible they usually are.

Prior to that one, I'd bought 3 other South Bend 9's from estates and never paid more than $300, but none of them were in especially nice condition. I also got my 10K from an estate sale in mint condition for $800. That also included a mostly complete 9B, 2 lever collet closers, a lever operated tailstock, several chucks and a bunch of tooling. Good deals are definitely out there, but you need to have patience and be prepared to pounce when one shows up.

I had to have a SBL in the shop-- it was my first lathe. I paid too much(it seemed at the time); but it was worth every cent. Haven't had a issue with it in 12 years (its a 1976 13-40 with webbed ways) Anyway, back to topic(rant side)-- drove 5 hours with a truck and trailer to buy 2 machines that were hailed as excellent condition. Got there and they were loose, worn, broken and half-ass repaired. Seller got mad because I didn't buy them; I wasn't happy after driving that far to find totally not as described rebuild candidates with a 5 hour drive to get home. I rationalized to keep this down to 1 in 20 and that folks unfamiliar with the machine they are selling are speaking out of their expertise. I get photo's ahead of the trip, but like the above( which I did have photos on) not all the defects are shown. Always some risk that can only be minimized.