Can a CL-145B be disassembled for transport?
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    Default Can a CL-145B be disassembled for transport?

    Hey there, first post on this site.

    A friend of mine recently sent me some photos of various machine tools in a former tenant's workshop that is being cleared out. From what I can tell matching together different photos online, one of the machines there is a South Bend CL-145B in unknown operational condition.

    As a person with occasional hands-on experience with machine tools like this and a mild interest in having one of my own for personal projects (and who has quite limited garage space available), I am trying to figure out if this is something that I can (or even should) try to transport home as a first lathe. There is a smaller bench-top lathe available too, but I haven't been able to get more information on that. Failing the full-sized machine, I will likely still be coming home with something either way. I'm in a townhome living arrangement with my own private garage, but plan on moving some time in the next few years, so this is going to have to be something that is manageable to break down and transport more than once. The mini benchtop lathe is probably the smarter idea for my situation, but... free full-size lathe.

    image0.jpg

    Can these machines be readily separated into smaller parts for easy transport (in the back of a Toyota RAV4)? Readily meaning pulling the head, ways and pedestal off in one to three hours - as opposed to having to dismantle the entire geartrain and every other moving piece.

    For the grand total of free-ninety-nine plus elbow grease and a folding shop crane, is this something I should even be considering - and if so, what things both in general and in particular to this machine should I be looking out for when making my final decision?

    Also, what sort of power source are the motors in these machines typically wound for? 120V 1⌀? 240V 1⌀? 208~240/480V 3⌀? 240V three phase I've got a spare drive for, but a single-voltage 480V motor will be a pain right in the butt.

    Sorry if this post is a little jumbled, sort of writing this in the middle of other things here.

    Thanks in advance for any light you guys can shed on this for me.

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    Pretty sure you're looking at getting a trailer and 3-phase. They can be broken down, but they're still heavy even in pieces. A hoist of some kind will be required either way I think.

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    If that's a hump on base motor door, I'm thinking its a 13" South Bend.

    Probably in the vicinity on 2000 lbs total. A 16" is like 2600 lbs.

    Yea it can come a part fairly quick, but I would say for a person who has taken one a part before. I'm guessing if you never touched one, but you were handy, 4 to 8 hours.

    Tail stock you can lift by hand. The rest you would need something to help. A roll around, engine hoist comes to mind.

    Electric is whatever motor someone put in. Could be single phase or 3 phase. Easy to change to whatever you want it to be.

    I'd rent a pick up, and/or a trailer if you don't have one.

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    Thanks. Any ideas on what the disassembly process might look like or if there are any resources out there which could provide some insight on that? I imagine the pedestal should separate fairly easily given that a flat belt seems (?) to be the only moving part passing in or out. The geartrain on the head has got me more worried, as well as the carriage. How much of a pain in the butt do you figure those two might be?

    If I can get each chunk down to no more than ~700lbs I might be able to get away with it. (1,000 lb vehicle load rating, 150lb driver, 150lb folding crane, reasonable distance to make multiple trips.)

    If it's going to end up being more trouble than it's worth I might just settle for the little guy instead like I know I should. It's just so tempting, you know?

    image1.jpg

    Out of curiosity, any idea what I might be looking at here? I've asked my friend to get better photos that show a nameplate or a manufacturer's logo or anything, but he's the artsy type so I might not get that information until I'm standing in front of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just a Sparky View Post
    Hey there, first post on this site.

    A friend of mine recently sent me some photos of various machine tools in a former tenant's workshop that is being cleared out. From what I can tell matching together different photos online, one of the machines there is a South Bend CL-145B in unknown operational condition.

    As a person with occasional hands-on experience with machine tools like this and a mild interest in having one of my own for personal projects (and who has quite limited garage space available), I am trying to figure out if this is something that I can (or even should) try to transport home as a first lathe. There is a smaller bench-top lathe available too, but I haven't been able to get more information on that. Failing the full-sized machine, I will likely still be coming home with something either way. I'm in a townhome living arrangement with my own private garage, but plan on moving some time in the next few years, so this is going to have to be something that is manageable to break down and transport more than once. The mini benchtop lathe is probably the smarter idea for my situation, but... free full-size lathe.

    image0.jpg

    Can these machines be readily separated into smaller parts for easy transport (in the back of a Toyota RAV4)? Readily meaning pulling the head, ways and pedestal off in one to three hours - as opposed to having to dismantle the entire geartrain and every other moving piece.

    For the grand total of free-ninety-nine plus elbow grease and a folding shop crane, is this something I should even be considering - and if so, what things both in general and in particular to this machine should I be looking out for when making my final decision?

    Also, what sort of power source are the motors in these machines typically wound for? 120V 1⌀? 240V 1⌀? 208~240/480V 3⌀? 240V three phase I've got a spare drive for, but a single-voltage 480V motor will be a pain right in the butt.

    Sorry if this post is a little jumbled, sort of writing this in the middle of other things here.

    Thanks in advance for any light you guys can shed on this for me.
    A little bitty lathe like that is easy to move. where in Minnesota are you. My brother may be able to help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just a Sparky View Post
    Can these machines be readily separated into smaller parts for easy transport .......
    Nope. Those machines were cast all in one piece.



    Sure, this is the best way to do it, the single heaviest part as you guessed is the motor housing for those. It will be
    a bit lighter if you remove the motor, and the motor hanger as well. Take extra care with the cast louvered covers, they
    are fragile and basically unobtainium.

    Break it down thus:

    Tailstock, headstock. Remove the gearbox and the leadscrew as a unit, tape them with strapping tape to a long 2X4 or similar timber. Do
    not bend the leadscrew. Take similar care with the gear banjo on the left side of the headstock.

    Wind the carriage off the bed and set it aside.

    With a bit of care and a helper, you can remove the bed from the motor base, and the cast iron legs on the right side of the bed. Don't let the
    legs fall over and break as you remove them. (helper!)

    With a bit of fussing you can remove the motor bracket and motor. A car scissors jack and and some bits of plywood help here.

    Bring lots of nitrile gloves, rags, ziplock bags, and some milk cartons.

    You are probably looking at three or four trips in a RAV-4, but it's entirely doable. If you can get a reasonably heavy pickup you can do it in one,
    but you still want to dismantle it. Dismantling it means you can clean the years worth of spooge and chips out of the thing before you set it
    back up.

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    Order the how to rebuild manual as it instructions on proper teardown

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Nope. Those machines were cast all in one piece.



    Sure, this is the best way to do it, the single heaviest part as you guessed is the motor housing for those. It will be
    a bit lighter if you remove the motor, and the motor hanger as well. Take extra care with the cast louvered covers, they
    are fragile and basically unobtainium.

    Break it down thus:

    Tailstock, headstock. Remove the gearbox and the leadscrew as a unit, tape them with strapping tape to a long 2X4 or similar timber. Do
    not bend the leadscrew. Take similar care with the gear banjo on the left side of the headstock.

    Wind the carriage off the bed and set it aside.

    With a bit of care and a helper, you can remove the bed from the motor base, and the cast iron legs on the right side of the bed. Don't let the
    legs fall over and break as you remove them. (helper!)

    With a bit of fussing you can remove the motor bracket and motor. A car scissors jack and and some bits of plywood help here.

    Bring lots of nitrile gloves, rags, ziplock bags, and some milk cartons.

    You are probably looking at three or four trips in a RAV-4, but it's entirely doable. If you can get a reasonably heavy pickup you can do it in one,
    but you still want to dismantle it. Dismantling it means you can clean the years worth of spooge and chips out of the thing before you set it
    back up.
    Awesome, awesome instructions here Jim, I really appreciate it. Yeah from what I gather it's a really good idea to take apart these South Bends and do a deep cleaning & inspection before even thinking about applying power for any longer than a quick bump. Every surface on them except the cone pulley and one or two shielded bearings seem to be felt-wick lubricated... and it seems that said wicks tend to break down over time and usually need to be replaced. I might not go so far as repainting the thing for a while, but I definitely want to clean all the gears, replace all the felts and get all the bright surfaces bright again before I actually use it.

    In that regard I've heard that fine ScotchBrite and light oil work well for taking light surface rust off of the ways and other precision surfaces without damaging the base metal. Is there truth to this, or is there a better way?

    Definitely interested in picking up a copy of South Bend's "How to Run a Lathe" since it seems like many people often refer to it as the "South Bend Bible".

    Also, are there any hidden dangers or rabbit holes to be aware of when removing the spindle - beyond releasing the bearing expanders before pulling the caps and keeping track of the shims & front ends? I'll need to do that to get at the spindle bearing felts sooner or later and I really don't want to screw it up.

    Thanks.

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    No way I would try to stick the cast pedestal base in a RAV4- that thing is ungainly and dangerous. Do it right. Get a trailer. Look at it this way, your entire plan hinges on disassembly. If a single fastener refuses to cooperate, you are stuck. If you move the thing whole, don't have to worry about that.

    allan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just a Sparky View Post
    ...I've heard that fine ScotchBrite and light oil work well for taking light surface rust off of the ways and other precision surfaces without damaging the base metal. Is there truth to this, or is there a better way?
    Don't do this!!!!!

    Using ANY abrasive on a precision surface will embed abrasive particles in that surface. Therefore, every time something passes over those particles, some of the precision surface goes with it.

    Sure, people will say, "I did that to mine and it is still fine..." don't realize that their precision surfaces are being slowly eaten away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kitno455 View Post
    No way I would try to stick the cast pedestal base in a RAV4- that thing is ungainly and dangerous. Do it right. Get a trailer. Look at it this way, your entire plan hinges on disassembly. If a single fastener refuses to cooperate, you are stuck. If you move the thing whole, don't have to worry about that.
    allan
    Minus the motor and motor mount, the thing weighs less than 600 pounds probably. Three people there. Also depends on how far the RAV has to go. Across
    town yes, across the state, no. Not saying the nose of the car would not be pointing up a bit.

    Point's well taken - although again I would dismantle on site and load into a pickup with a covered bed, rather than all at once on a trailer.
    I moved an entire 10L in the back of a small pickup (ford ranger) all in one shot. Granted it was the pipe leg version. The truck barely noticed the lathe
    was there.

    (stuck fasteners: don't forget the impact driver!)

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    Just my two cents, I think this is probably a lot more heavy work than imagine or hope for.
    Even it you were able to remove some parts, what about the bed and the bench? Most definitely
    a good size trailer and 3-4 guys to help; maybe one with an actual V8 pick-up truck.
    I would personally hire a machine moving company to take it from point A to point B. And
    they can probably do it in one piece. (But yeah, remove what you can).

    I would also ask myself if I really need such a big heavy lathe. Sure thing, she's a beauty and can do serious
    damaged to a long chunk of steel....but do you see yourself doing that? OR, is the bench top probably more your speed?
    They take up less space and are easily taken apart for transport. (You probably still need a truck).
    It's easier to move up to a bigger lathe (should you decide you need it) rather than the opposite way. Just saying.

    PMc

    img_0883.jpg

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    Do you have access to the machine? (as ,is it in a garage that you can pull up to?) If so you might consider renting or borrowing a truck and seeing if the local rental place has a dropdeck trailer. You mentioned that you have an engine hoist, do you have slings also? Putting the Southbend on 4 x 4's and lagging them down to the legs in a sort of sled and moving the whole unit using pipes as rollers onto the trailer,and then to where you can disassemble it at your leisure would be my first choice, but disassembly is not a bad way to go if you have help. Take lots of pictures.I have moved similar and heavier machines both ways so it is a toss up which will work better in a given situation, safe and careful is the by word here. Jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just a Sparky View Post
    Thanks. Any ideas on what the disassembly process might look like or if there are any resources out there which could provide some insight on that? I imagine the pedestal should separate fairly easily given that a flat belt seems (?) to be the only moving part passing in or out. The geartrain on the head has got me more worried, as well as the carriage. How much of a pain in the butt do you figure those two might be?

    If I can get each chunk down to no more than ~700lbs I might be able to get away with it. (1,000 lb vehicle load rating, 150lb driver, 150lb folding crane, reasonable distance to make multiple trips.)

    If it's going to end up being more trouble than it's worth I might just settle for the little guy instead like I know I should. It's just so tempting, you know?

    image1.jpg

    Out of curiosity, any idea what I might be looking at here? I've asked my friend to get better photos that show a nameplate or a manufacturer's logo or anything, but he's the artsy type so I might not get that information until I'm standing in front of it.
    Here's your photo with higher exposure. Doesn't look like a South Bend to me at all. You never know how complete
    something like this is. Might as well ask for the parallel clamps too! Ask your art friend to use his flash next time!

    PMc

    lathe-unknown.jpg

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    The mini benchtop lathe is an atlas. Not a bad machine if you can get it for free. But you can chuck that atlas lathe up, IN the southbend 13, and
    turn it down into little bitty toothpicks. The SB13 is very solid machine. Two strong men can move the bed for that, at least enough to get it onto
    a dolly. There is no bench for that, just the chip pan and the legs.

    And the motor housing.

    If you have the room for the SB13, it's a go-to for sure. Also has taper attachment.

    If you can get the atlas for cheap, fix it up, sell it, and use the money you get from that, to buy good tooling
    for the SB13.

    IF you decide to try to move the SB all at once, you get it up onto 4X4 timbers, running the long way, and spike it down to those. Bevel
    the ends of the timbers so you can skid them along. Screw a piece of plwood front-to-back between the timbers, under the machine, to
    add some stabilty to keep the right hand legs from racking. Pipes go under the timbers.

    Some rigging experience requiredf for this approach. Do not hurt yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    The mini benchtop lathe is an atlas. Not a bad machine if you can get it for free. But you can chuck that atlas lathe up, IN the southbend 13, and
    turn it down into little bitty toothpicks. The SB13 is very solid machine. Two strong men can move the bed for that, at least enough to get it onto
    a dolly. There is no bench for that, just the chip pan and the legs.

    And the motor housing.

    If you have the room for the SB13, it's a go-to for sure. Also has taper attachment.

    If you can get the atlas for cheap, fix it up, sell it, and use the money you get from that, to buy good tooling
    for the SB13.

    IF you decide to try to move the SB all at once, you get it up onto 4X4 timbers, running the long way, and spike it down to those. Bevel
    the ends of the timbers so you can skid them along. Screw a piece of plwood front-to-back between the timbers, under the machine, to
    add some stabilty to keep the right hand legs from racking. Pipes go under the timbers.

    Some rigging experience requiredf for this approach. Do not hurt yourself.
    I just had an opportunity to go and inspect those machines closely in person and you've pretty much mirrored my own conclusions. The difference in construction between the SB13 and the Atlas 10D is night and day. It is readily apparent that the latter is a consumer-oriented machine with lightweight, economical construction whereas the SB13 was clearly designed to be maintainable over a long life of industrial service. The thing that really turns me off from that Atlas is the Zamac alloy parts and the babbitt spindle bearings. It just isn't nearly as solid of a machine. Kenworth dump truck vs Ford Ranger pickup.

    I don't think the SB was hauled into that site in one piece to begin with - I think it was ordered in boxed configuration rather than crated and then assembled in place. There is a steep incline down to the shop that it's in so it would've had to have been winched or craned down otherwise. In talking more with my friend I'm pretty sure that it's only ever had one owner - and from what I can tell it's been well cared for. A quick glimpse at the nameplate showed what I *think* was an old style pre-1947 serial number - but I'm not sure. I forgot to take a picture. Grimy and a little bit rusty from sitting for at least the last two decades, but everything else on it besides a broken belt tension handle looks almost new. The ways on it look pretty nice. All in all I'd venture to guess it just needs a thorough cleaning inside and out, some new wicks and then some beautification to run like new.

    While I was there I discovered that the third and final machine in one of the pictures I got was not a surface grinder like I had thought, but rather a Burke 126A keyway mill with vertical milling attachment and pedestal base. Score! I haven't had a chance to look too closely but I'm pretty sure the motor on it is an old repulsion-induction unit. It wouldn't kick over to induction when I tested it, so either the brush lifting mechanism needs some attention or it's just a regular universal. (But if it *is* repulsion-induction, that increases the cool factor for me quite a bit. Something about those old motors is just really neat to me. )

    img_20200504_153215591.jpg

    So in the end I think I'll actually be working on moving two machines into my garage, and possibly the third like you say to fix up and convert into tooling - unless I can find any friends-of-friends in need.
    Last edited by Just a Sparky; 05-04-2020 at 07:29 PM. Reason: Added photo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just a Sparky View Post
    I just had an opportunity to go and inspect those machines closely in person and you've pretty much mirrored my own conclusions. The difference in construction between the SB13 and the Atlas 10D is night and day. It is readily apparent that the latter is a consumer-oriented machine with lightweight, economical construction whereas the SB13 was clearly designed to be maintainable over a long life of industrial service. The thing that really turns me off from that Atlas is the Zamac alloy parts and the babbitt spindle bearings. It just isn't nearly as solid of a machine. Kenworth dump truck vs Ford Ranger pickup. ...
    Actually the babbit bearing spindles on those were supposed to be better than the timkin bearing ones, when set up properly. My original lathe had the babbit ones.

    The SB-13 was a true industrial machine at one time, a step up from the heavy ten. Same spindle though, can take a 5C collet right in the spindle with the correct
    adapter sleeve.

    You need to be real careful moving the motor housing casting up the stairs. Sounds like a ramp of planks and a chain fall at the top. Under NO circumstances
    should you have ANYONE under the load while it is being hoisted, or even in a place where it would land if something goes wrong. Any questions see if you can
    hire a rigger to get the parts out of the basement, handle the rest yourself. A flat bed roll-back wrecker can be used to good advantage if there is outside
    access to the top of the stairway.

    Trouble happens when the chain from the chain fall is horizontal at the top of the stairs, then bends over as it goes down the stairs. When the load gets to the top
    of the stairs, the ability for the lift chain to pull it over the top basically goes to zero. If a roll back is there, set up at the stair angle, the the hoist cable
    can keep on pulling.

    Also take a good hard look at the stairs if made of wood, be sure the load rating on them can handle the housing.

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    Fortunately it's just a concrete grade, no stairs involved. The workshop in question is sort of a split level halfway below grade. Best case, there's plenty of room to maneuver so depending on how heavy it is once stripped down it might just be as simple as tipping it on it's side and getting a guy on each of the four corners. Worst case I can probably get creative with some reinforced mover's dollies, some heavy cargo straps and a winch.

    Once it's free and clear a folding shop crane should be able to pick it and load it provided a solid lifting arrangement can be devised.

    Have you ever had one of those bases apart? Know how heavy the casting is by chance? I'm guessing at least half of the weight is in the bottom drive pulley, motor and door + panels. If I can get those dropped out that should help substantially. The only other question mark after that is the bed, and again I think it's going to come down to much the same scenario as above.

    While I'm thinking about it, what sort of procedure is going to be involved when it comes time to re-align the headstock? I vaguely remember hearing something about using a known round shaft colletted into the spindle and a dial indicator. I think you're supposed to face off the end and then adjust the headstock until said face indicates the same error on both front and back... then wash, rinse, repeat until it's dead on the nuts?

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    If you go the movers dolly route be very careful relative to the center of gravity of what you are moving. Avoid the horrible freight ones as the 1000 lb. rating is highly optimistic. The base with the motor drive is a few hundred lbs. The headstock is pretty much self aligning if I recall when I reassembled mine, but the procedure you described will probably verify . Jim

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    Headstock goes right back on, self aligning. Clean the top of the bed and the bottom ways on the headstock of course. It will
    be filthy probably. My recollection is that about 1/4 of the weight of the base is in the motor and motor support. Strapping
    the base to a mover's dolly is probably a good way to go.

    As mentioned take off the door, and the side panels as they are sort of fragile.


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