Heavy 10: Lever Collet Closer versus Hand Wheel Collet Closer

xplodee · Oct 17, 2015

Hey Guys-

The collet closer that came with my lathe is a modified hardinge hand wheel closer which does not feature thrust bearings plus the wheel is a very small diameter, this makes it almost impossible to use.

I bought a lever operated collet closer off of ebay that needed some work. I'm in process of fixing it but I had some questions:

I have a 1943 machine, it seems like the back gear lever will interfere with the yoke lever bracket when back gear is engaged. Is this normal? Should I grind away some material from the lever bracket? Other solutions?
Do all lever operated collet closers require a new spindle reverse gear to be fitted to the back end of the spindle? Or is this only for some versions?
Based on how people reply to (1) and (2), I may just buy a hand operated collet closer. What do people think about using hand operated closers versus the lever operated ones? I have a lever operated unit on my HLVH so I know it's convenient, but is the hand one really that bad?

Thank you!

jim rozen · Oct 18, 2015

Yes the short gear needs to be changed out to the longer one, that has an extension out the
left side to accept the closer. Correctly installed the gear guard does not interfere with the
closer bracket:

Not all headstocks have the tapped hole for the pin that locates
the right side of the bracket but it's easy to locate, drill, and tap
if it's missing:

moonlight machine · Oct 18, 2015

I made a bracket off the gear cover. No need to mess with the back gear lever. hand wheel closers SUCK, especially after you have used a lever closer.

xplodee · Oct 18, 2015

moonlight machine said:
I made a bracket off the gear cover. No need to mess with the back gear lever. hand wheel closers SUCK, especially after you have used a lever closer.

I think youre right about hand wheels. Could you provide a picture of your bracket off of the gear cover?

xplodee · Oct 18, 2015

Jim-

Thank you for clarifying. Do you have a pic of the gear extender? Im not exactly clear on how it functions.

T

stephen thomas · Oct 18, 2015

Based on how people reply to (1) and (2), I may just buy a hand operated collet closer. What do people think about using hand operated closers versus the lever operated ones? I have a lever operated unit on my HLVH so I know it's convenient, but is the hand one really that bad?

with a lever closer, the collet threads and drawtube threads do not wear, compared with constantly screwing a hand rotated drawtube tight and back off, etc.

If you are doing repeat parts with a length stop or feature, the drawtube, once set, will repeat to the same depth. The hand tube might or might not depending on your wrist calibration and part diameter variance.

Finally, if you do multiples either off a bar or sometimes by chucking individually, a lever closer often (usually) permits changing them without stopping the spindle. This can make a huge difference in time even over 25 or 50 parts.

PS, your Hardinge hand tube is supposed to have a wrench to turn it.

This drawtube is for the Hardinge dividing head, but the hardened sheet metal wrench is the same for all the manual drawtubes including for the lathes.

And if your wrists are giving out like mine, the wrench grips positively enough to stick a cheater pipe over as well.

smt

morsetaper2 · Oct 18, 2015

xplodee said:
Based on how people reply to (1) and (2), I may just buy a hand operated collet closer. What do people think about using hand operated closers versus the lever operated ones? I have a lever operated unit on my HLVH so I know it's convenient, but is the hand one really that bad?

I have the std South Bend handwheel operated closer and I like it just fine. And it has a thrust bearing. If I was doing lots of production then I might feel differently. I have used the lever operated closer on a Hardinge lathe and I agree its better than handwheel drawbar when you are in production.

It all depends on your needs. Handwheel closer is certainly easier to set up.

xplodee · Oct 18, 2015

This is the interference issue that I'm seeing on the lever operated collet closer that I picked up. Not exactly sure why this is happening but I am happy to take suggestions:

Untitled by Tim Marks, on Flickr

Ohio Mike · Oct 18, 2015

Yes, your back gear handle is clocked wrong for a collet closer. Many are like that. You could take it apart, drill and tapered ream it about 30 degrees from where it is now. Or simply make a different bracket. The difference between the two gears is the one for the collet closer has a collar on it which extends beyond the left side of the spindle, it also has a keyway. The collar accepts the closer and the key way keeps it from rotating independent of the spindle (the two are forced to turn together). I thought I had some pictures but I don't.

iwananew10K · Oct 18, 2015

i hate lever closers.

But I never did any real production either, onesy,twosy mostly.

For me the lever style just got in the way. Never had any trouble with the handwheel type,mine was just a standard issue SB one.

I would think that with an HLVH equipped with a lever closer at your disposal your 10l would be more of a general purpose machine, mostly chuck work??

xplodee · Oct 18, 2015

iwananew10K said:
I would think that with an HLVH equipped with a lever closer at your disposal your 10l would be more of a general purpose machine, mostly chuck work??

The HLV-H is at work and the 10L is at home. The 10L really is mostly general purpose work and I agree that I won't be pulling the chuck off too often. Considering that, plus the fact that I need to find the gear extender, and re-pin the back gear lever, I am considering just modifying my hardinge collet closer to use a thrust bearing (or making a new wheel closer from scratch) and selling the lever parts that I own.

I will never use this machine for production, ever.

Blob · Oct 18, 2015

iwananew10K said:
But I never did any real production either, onesy,twosy mostly.

Same here - I have both, and ended up putting the lever closer on the shelf. For hobby type work the handwheel closer works fine. Production work, another story. I actually made my own closer and incorporated a thrust bearing in it - I think it takes less effort to clamp the part tightly with the bearing in there. Another advantage of making your own is you can use a larger diameter hand wheel if you like, to further reduce the effort needed to use it.

xplodee · Oct 18, 2015

Blob said:
Same here - I have both, and ended up putting the lever closer on the shelf. For hobby type work the handwheel closer works fine. Production work, another story. I actually made my own closer and incorporated a thrust bearing in it - I think it takes less effort to clamp the part tightly with the bearing in there. Another advantage of making your own is you can use a larger diameter hand wheel if you like, to further reduce the effort needed to use it.

Hi Blob-

I'm headed this direction. do you have a link to your build?

Blob · Oct 19, 2015

xplodee said:
Hi Blob-

I'm headed this direction. do you have a link to your build?

No link to the build, but I do have some photos. Been a long time since I posted pics, hope it works. I machined the tube from pipe, the hand wheel is from Enco and is attached to the shaft with pins. I think the bearing came from McMaster-Carr. Sorry about so little info - it's been a long time ago and I didn't document the build.

jim rozen · Oct 19, 2015

If you want to sell the lever closer, please contact me. My buddy has a 10L and it would be good for him.
I advise you to not sell it but mount it to your machine. I photographed my setup but the dropbox is
apparently not working - the photo shows the arm in place, and the clearance between the arm and the
back gear lever.

Ah, no, belay that. Photo came through:

If you are set on a handwheel type you MUST have a thrust bearing. This is one example done
for a smaller (3C) lathe:

xplodee · Oct 21, 2015

Jim and blob-

Thanks for the images, this helps me understand the handwheel closers better.

I'm going to go ahead and finish restoring my lever closer and give installation a shot, as I have nothing to lose but some time and that's what this hobby is all about, right?

Does anyone have images and dimensions of the gear extension assembly for the back of the spindle? I will likely have to machine this on my own; I've never seen them for sale individually before.

T

panabax · Nov 6, 2015

I think I have one of these gears at home. I will try to dig it up and get some pictures and dimensions for you.

Baxter

panabax · Nov 6, 2015

Here are a few pictures of the gear. The measurements are:

od of extension: 2.074"
id of extension: 1.750"
keyway: 1/8"
overall length (including gear section): 2.004"
number of teeth: 40
width of gear section: 0.570"

I'm not sure what else to measure. Let me know if you need additional dimensions. It seems to me you could continue to use your current gear and just turn a bushing with a 1.75" id that is 1 7/6" long and call it good.

Baxter

xplodee · Nov 7, 2015

panabax said:
I'm not sure what else to measure. Let me know if you need additional dimensions. It seems to me you could continue to use your current gear and just turn a bushing with a 1.75" id that is 1 7/6" long and call it good.

You're the man! thank you. I agree, a bushing is all that's needed. Can an expert say otherwise? Maybe we're both missing something.

SBLatheman · Nov 7, 2015

xplodee said:
You're the man! thank you. I agree, a bushing is all that's needed. Can an expert say otherwise? Maybe we're both missing something.

Key and keyway. :smoking:

Ted

Heavy 10: Lever Collet Closer versus Hand Wheel Collet Closer

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