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  1. #21
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    To help you understand what these components do, here is a quick run down of how these motors work:

    A single phase motor only needs 1 winding to truly run.



    In this image, there is only the run winding that is connected to the power line. For 230V service, the wire designations are L1 and L2, but if you are using 110V, than the designations are Hot and Neutral. The Hot wire is the black one, and Neutral is the white one in the standard AC cord. So in this setup, green is connected to L1/Hot and yellow is connected to L2/Neutral. This could be reversed (green=L2/Neutral, yellow=L1/Hot), and it won't make one bit of difference because the power line supplies alternating current. The problem with this setup is that the motor will not self start. That is to say, it will not turn on it's own and and will just sit there humming. One way to start it would be to hook it up just like that, and when the motor is just sitting there humming, put a hand crank on the rotor shaft, and crank it in whatever directions you want the motor to turn. Kind of like they used to start old car engines. If you spin it real fast by hand the motor will start, and if you release the crank handle, the motor will then continue running on its own, due to the momentum of the rotor.

    But you don't want to do that each time you want to start your lathe.

    So, this is where the start winding comes in.



    In this image the start winding is connected in parallel with the run winding. (geen=red=L1/Hot and yellow=black=L2/Neutral). There is a centrifugal switch that is in series with the start winding. When the motor is not spinning, this switch is closed. When you apply power to this motor in this setup, the start winding, and the run winding will both have current running through them. As the motor accelerates and reaches about 75% of it's top speed, the centrifugal switch will open, and the start winding will be disconnected from the power line. At this point, the start winding will no longer have any current going through it, and only the run winding will continue to spin the rotor, just as if the start winding wasn't even there. The problem with this setup however, is that you are only using single phase power. That is, the current going through the start winding, and run winding will be exactly the same, and both coils are in phase. This is not sufficient to start the motor from a full stop. In order for the start winding to start turning the rotor, it needs to be out of phase with the run winding, that is to say, there must be a delay between the currents in both windings. There are 3 ways to achieve this.

    1. Use multiphase power from the power company, which you don't have.
    2. Make the start and run windings different. This is done in split phase motors. They use a smaller diameter wire for the start winding, which increases its resistance. This difference in resistance of the start and run windings puts them out of phase.
    3. Keep the windings the same, but add a capacitor in series with the start winding. This capacitor will cause the current through the start winding to be out of phase with the current through the run winding. This is shown in the image below, and this is called a capacitor start motor, and that's the type of motor you have.



    As with the polarity of the run winding relative to the power line, the polarity of the start winding is not important to get the motor started. However, the polarity of the start winding relative to the run winding will decide on which direction the motor spins: clockwise or counterclockwise. To figure this out, you do it by trial and error. Simply hook it up as in the above figure, run it, and note the direction of rotation. Then you reverse the polarity of the start winding as shown below.



    Here, green=black=L1/Hot and yellow=red=L2/Neutral, and that will reverse the direction of the motor.

    So whole purpose of the drum switch is two fold:

    1. Disconnect power to the motor so that it can be completely turned off.
    2. Allow reversing polarity of the red and black wires of the start winding in order to change direction of the motor.

    So, Questions 3: Does this make any sense to you?

    p.s. It's getting late, so we will have to pick this up tomorrow.

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  3. #22
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    Hi Steven,

    Yes, I have some engineering background, and work in the technical field. As far as technical writing goes, that just gets hammered in during college years. You're forced to write so many boring papers, that there is just no escaping it afterwards.

    Cheers.

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  5. #23
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    Ok, back to your motor:

    This image shows how your motor is connected for whatever it was used during in it's previous life. Basically the purple line shows the connections that are made between the windings on that little terminal board you see inside the motor.



    The terminal board you have looks a little different than mine, but the connections on it are exactly the same. That is, if you look at the board by itself, with no wires, then the terminals themselves are connected as follows:

    L1 is by itself
    5 is by itself
    3 and 4 are tied together
    L2, 1 and 2 are tied together

    The wires from the windings are connected to the terminals as follows:

    Blue is tied to L1, then is jumped to 3.
    Red and Green are tied to 4.
    White is tied to 1.
    Yellow and Black are tied to 2.

    So all this really amounts to is that Blue=Green=Red and White=Yellow=Black.



    So at this point, you should test the motor to see if it even works at all. Just take your AC cord, and run the black wire in and connect it to L1 in the motor. Then run the white wire from the AC cord, and connect it to L2. The terminal points are shown in the image above. Crimp on the quick-disconnect terminals to the black and white wire of the AC cord, so that you can easily connect it to the board.

    Plug it in, and let us know what happened. If the motor works and is nice and quiet, then you have 2 options:

    1. Use it only in a single direction as is, and all you have left to do is to add just a plain old light switch to be able to turn the motor off.
    2. If you want to reverse the motor (as you have indicated) then we have few more steps ahead of us.

    If however, the motor is very loud, then you might want to consider taking it apart and changing the bearings.

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    One more thing. I just noticed that there is a nut missing over the stud where the black wire connects. Make sure that nut is there, otherwise the connection of the start winding might be loose.



    Also make sure the other connections are tight. Pop that red cap from terminal 4, and make sure everything is tight under it as well.

    Also the insulation of the blue jumper wire between L1 and 3 looks a little heat stressed. Make sure that wire is not toast.

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    Mr Iron Junkie,

    I have replaced the missing nut... and tightened both L1 and L2 connections and made the connections you suggested... the motor does indeed run but is a bit noisy. Your information and tutelage on this subject is both very simple and easy to follow as well as superb!

    Here is a simple movie of my motor running with the connections that you have taught me so far.

    Thank you so much!

    MVI 1393 - YouTube

    Troy

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    Hi Troy,

    It's nice to see your motor run. Many people give up on old motors and just go buy new ones, but I enjoy seeing an old motor keep going. There are only very few things that can fail in an AC motor, and I must say, the bearings on it have probably seen better days. So you have some options:

    1. Keep going with the wiring, so you know how to set it up for forward/reverse with the drum switch.
    2. Hold off on the wiring, and disassemble the motor to check and most likely replace the bearings.
    3. Get a new motor, but that's only if you don't want to spend the time on this one and have $250 to throw away. But I guessing you don't want to go this way.

    The motor I got with the lathe was flooded with water on some point, so there was bunch of rust inside, but nothing that damaged the windings. One of the bearings was no good, with the grease all dried up and rust inside of it. They were single shielded bearings so there was a way of cleaning them. But new bearings are so cheap ($6-8 each), that it only seemed logical to get new ones. I ended up getting Japanese bearings from ebay, as the original bearings on the motor were also Japanese. The Westinghouse motor was USA made, but bearings in it were Japanese. I'm sure they had a reason for that.

    If you would like, I can post some pictures of the motor restoration I did so you have an idea of what is involved. The most consuming part of it for me was stripping/cleaning/painting it, but the paint on yours looks to be in excellent shape, so you can skip that part. To pull the bearings I used a regular bearing puller, and to put them back on, I made a press out of some aluminum plates, 4 threaded rods and aluminum tubing. Now the motor runs nearly silent. The only sound from it is the click the centrifugal switch makes on start up or shut down.

    Running it the way it's now, with a loud bearing is probably not a good idea. It will work, but vibrations like that indicate wear, and wear leads to heat, so it's hard to say how long these bearings will last. And if they seize inside, then the whole bearing itself will start spinning inside the end bell, and damage the motor housing it's mounted in. At that point you would have to bore out the end bells again, to fit a slightly larger bearing, and that might not be worth the effort. Not sure.

    So you decide which way you want to go.

  11. #27
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    Mr Iron Junkie,

    Let us continue with Option #3 and get a new motor. I just pulled this off an obsolete Printing Press... and it's an upgrade to a 3/4 HP motor...it is the same size as the original 1/2 HP motor.... just better made (in my humble opinion)

    The Wiring diagram on the motor:


    wiringschem.75hp.jpg

    The Connections in the housing

    Just one minor note please.... Where #1 is denoted...that is actually #5.... I could not find a #1 on the board.

    connections.jpg


    And Here is the Video of it running (purring) along

    MVI 1406 - YouTube

    My friend... Again I give you Multitudes of my thanks

    Troy

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  13. #28
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    Ok,

    Lets call this Option 4: Find another old motor with better bearings in it. Hehe.

    Well, looking at the motor plate, and how it's connected at the terminal plate, it seems the motor is wired for 230V. So you need to change that.

    First, remove the two metal links that are screwed between terminals 3 and 4.



    Then, screw one of the links between terminals 4 and 5, and the other link between terminals 2 and 3. This should now be configured for 115V, as that is what the nameplate is telling us.



    As with the Westinghouse motor, this one is dual voltage motor, so it has 2 run windings in it. Changing those links around, will put the run windings in parallel, as opposed to how they are now, which is in series. You powered it from 110V, and it still worked, so you might be wandering why it worked. Coils are coils, whether they be in series or parallel, and the AC current couldn't care less. So the motor turned on fine, but running both windings in series from 110V probably dropped the amount of torque it could generate, so it could no longer be rated as a 3/4H motor.

    Another thing, this motor has thermal protection switch in it, while the Westinghouse motor didn't. All this means, is that if the motor gets dangerously hot due to bearing failure or extended heavy load, the motor will shut itself down. There is probably a reset switch mounted for it somewhere. This does affect the wiring of the motor a little, in the sense that the Hot/Black wire from you AC cord, needs to be connected to the lower L terminal, as I'm guessing the thermal switch is wired between terminal 2 and the lower L terminal. Anytime you switch 110V lines, it's the Hot/Black wire that must be switched, because it is not tied to earth ground at the circuit breaker box. This is purely for safety reasons. In contrast the White/Neutral line can stay connected, because it is tied to earth ground at the circuit breaker box, so if you accidentally touch it, while you are standing barefoot on the ground, you're less likely to get electrocuted.

    Anyways, try it again, this time configured for 115V, and see if it works.

    So just to reiterate, the Black/Hot wire from the AC cord goes to the lower L terminal, and the White/Neutral wire goes to the upper L terminal. This is also indicated on the motor plate where they tell you the lower lines must be "ungrounded".

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  15. #29
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    Ok...It's done....

    Here is a picture of the resulting changes...the photo is not so clear....

    img_1407.jpg

    And here is the video...It seams the change has brought us some noise... dang it

    MVI 1408 - YouTube

    And you are correct yet again... at the end of the video, on the left hand side of the motor, you will see the red reset button for the thermal protection.

    Troy

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    Hmm....

    I kind of wonder if the noise was lower when you had it wired for 230V because the RPMs were lower or because the torque was lower. Hard to tell. The noise is there in both instances, it is just a lot quieter when it was wired for 230V. So I'm almost thinking it's the lowered torque, but it's just a guess. If you had a tool for measuring RPMs, you could probably do a comparison, and see if they are running at the same speed in both configurations.

    But, that's how it is with older motors. Worn out bearings. But that is typically all that is wrong with them, and changing them is cheap and not really all that difficult. Once you do your first bearing swap, you will think: "Well......that wasn't so bad".

    Got any other motors you want to try? Or do you want to keep going forward with wiring one of them to your drum switch?

    p.s.

    I'm out for today. Will be back tomorrow night.

    Till then.

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  18. #31
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    I have more motors....unfortunately they are hard to get to at the moment....Lets continue on and see if we can wire it up

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    I-J,

    I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread. Having recently bought a NOS South Bend drum switch I was wondering where I could lay my hands on the correct wiring info for my 230 v 50 Hz motor.
    Your brilliant efforts are much appreciated. Keep up the good work.
    Happy New Year from the Indian Ocean
    Skilly

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    Mr Iron Junkie..... I have a couple more questions related to the motor...but not the wiring...

    I tried to bolt this dog up to the counter pulley...however the footprint does not match up to the pre~Drilled and tapped holes (one bolt will fit.... the other three come up terribly short )...How did you overcome that little obstacle with your motor.

    Also the motor shaft is only a 1/2 inch...and the original double pulley is a 3/4inch hole... did you buy a new pulley or did you use a sleeve?
    Last edited by Yort81; 12-31-2012 at 04:09 PM. Reason: Additional Information

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    Skilly....have you noticed that Mr Iron Junkie isnt JUST handing out the answer... but he is also teaching so we understand what we are doing in the process? `Passing on knowledge and skill.... PRICELESS!! (and most appreciated!)

    Troy



    Quote Originally Posted by Skilly56 View Post
    I-J,

    I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread. Having recently bought a NOS South Bend drum switch I was wondering where I could lay my hands on the correct wiring info for my 230 v 50 Hz motor.
    Your brilliant efforts are much appreciated. Keep up the good work.
    Happy New Year from the Indian Ocean
    Skilly

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yort81 View Post
    Mr Iron Junkie..... I have a couple more questions related to the motor...but not the wiring...

    I tried to bolt this dog up to the counter pulley...however the footprint does not match up to the pre~Drilled and tapped holes (one bolt will fit.... the other three come up terribly short )...How did you overcome that little obstacle with your motor.

    Also the motor shaft is only a 1/2 inch...and the original double pulley is a 3/4inch hole... did you buy a new pulley or did you use a sleeve?
    Which motor are you trying to fit? The GE or Westinghouse?

    I'm assuming GE, since the mounting holes on the cradle for it are much closer together than the Westinghouse. Have you tried fitting the Westinghouse? I think that one would work as it looks very close to the one I have, which is the original motor that came with the lathe. I suppose you could swap out the cradles between the motors if you really want to. Just take off the clamps around the rubber vibration absorbers at each end bell, and the motor should just pull out. If they are about the same width then it should work. If they don't, you could always drill new holes in the cradle of the motor you are trying to mount, or make an adapter plate to go between the motor and the countershaft drive assembly.

    The shaft on the Westinghouse motor I have is 5/8" in diameter. I'm guessing that is the standard size for 9" or 10" lathe motors. This begs the question: what size lathe are you working on? If it is a 9" or 10", then your pulley with 3/4" bore might not be original.

    SBLatheman (aka Ted) might be a very good source for getting a motor pulley. The pulley size is important as it will determine the speed of your lathe. However, if you ever choose to use VFD with a 3-phase motor, then pulley size becomes less critical, since you can set whatever speed you want.

    I'll post more wiring information later tonight.

    I'm going to keep going with the goal of wiring that Westinghouse motor you have. Once we're done, you should be easily able to switch it over to whatever motor you end up choosing, as long as it is either split phase or capacitor start motor. If you end up with one of those instant reversing motors that has a relay in it, then that's a bit different, and our end result might not work.

    I'm still thinking you should stick with the Westinghouse and just throw a new pair of bearings on it. If you got access to an H-Frame hydraulic press, then it should be a snap, as you don't have to make a custom bearing press. But the press is so simple to make, that it's not really a big deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skilly56 View Post
    I-J,

    I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread. Having recently bought a NOS South Bend drum switch I was wondering where I could lay my hands on the correct wiring info for my 230 v 50 Hz motor.
    Your brilliant efforts are much appreciated. Keep up the good work.
    Happy New Year from the Indian Ocean
    Skilly
    Well, stay tuned Skilly. You can work out the wiring info without any schematics, just by looking at what the drum switch is doing in its 3 possible position. We're getting there.

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    Mr Iron Junkie,

    You are correct...the shaft size is 5/8ths.... However...the Westinghouse motor footing is even smaller than the GE. (i like the GE better ) As you can tell..im anxious to get up and cutting chips :P

    and yes....it's South Bend 9A.

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    I-J, you have gone the extra mile and worked the 25th hour for this subject, hats off to you sir! And you most certainly have gone a lot farther than I cared to go with it.

    Happy New Year everyone!

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    Ok, well for the sake of keeping these diagrams continuous, lets keep going with the Westinghouse motor. As I've said before, to switch over to the GE motor, it's going to be very very easy.

    So,

    This first image shows how the coils in the motor are connected to the terminal board. Kind of gives you an idea of what's happening behind the terminal board. With the GE motor, they are connecting bunch of the wiring on the other side of the board, so you don't really see all the wires. Doesn't really matter, and in a way makes it look cleaner. But that's not all that important.



    The next 2 images show what we need to do next. Since you decided to make the motor reversible, we have to disconnect the wires for the starting coil from the terminal board, and run them outside of the motor to the drum switch. In both your Westinghouse motor and the GE motor the colors for the starting coil wires are RED and BLACK. Maybe it is some kind of an industry standard, or maybe we just got lucky.





    This image is a view of the terminal plate in the Westinghouse motor. I've marked the locations of where you need to disconnect the RED and BLACK wires. Just take the nuts out, pull out the ring terminals holding each wire, and thread the nuts back on. So at this point, the RED and BLACK wire should be floating and be completely disconnected from the terminal board. Next, cut off the ring terminals at the end of the RED and BLACK wires, and strip down a 1/4" - 1/2" of the insulation.



    Next, we are going to bring in the 5 conductor cord you got from the old motor. The colors of the wires are brown, blue, pink, white, black. So, our wires designations will be as follows.

    Brown: this will be the earth ground. You need to crimp on the ring terminal, so that you can bolt it down to the motor chasis.
    Blue and White: these will be the supply lines for the run windings. You need to crimp on the quick disconnect terminals.
    Pink and Black: these will be the supply lines for the starting winding. Just strip down 1/4" to 1/2" of the insulation from the end. These will be connected with twist on terminals.

    The diagram below shows the points where each wire is connected.

    Brown: goes to chasis
    Blue: goes to L1 on terminal board
    White: goes to L2 on terminal board
    Pink: twist tie together with Red wire in the motor. The yellow X means that Red wire is no longer connected to terminal board.
    Black: twist tie together with Black wire in the motor. The yellow X means that Black wire is no longer connected to terminal board.



    Next is a schematic version of what we just did. Should be self-explanatory at this point.



    Next, you will run the motor in both directions with the AC cord.

    Connect the AC cord and the cord coming from the motor with twist-on connectors, or just tie them together and wrap with electrical tape.

    So the first test should be wired as follows:

    - Brown from motor is tied to the Green wire from the AC cord. This is the earth ground. You don't really need to tie them at this point, since you are only testing. But you can if you want to.
    - Blue and Pink from the motor are both tied to Black from the AC cord.
    - White and Black from the motor are both tied to White from the AC cord.

    Plug it in, and note witch direction the motor spins.



    Next, you will disconnect the two cord, and then you will cross the Pink and Black wires. So the connections should be as follows:

    - Blue and Black from the motor are both tied to Black from the AC cord.
    - White and Pink from the motor are both tied to White from the AC cord.

    Thing to observe here, is that the run windings has the same exact polarity as before. Nothing changes with the run winding. What does change, is
    the polarity of the start winding. It gets reversed relative to the AC cord, which essentially puts it 180 degrees out of phase with what it was doing before.



    Note the direction the motor spins. It should be opposite of what you had before.

    Let me know if this works, and we'll move on to the drum switch.

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    Almost forgot:

    Happy New Year everyone!


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