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Multifix tool for SB 16 (1959 Lucile)

barryw

Aluminum
Joined
Mar 5, 2018
So, as Lucile nears completion, I am in need of a more modern tool post than the original lantern one that came with the Lathe. Bare in mind I am not working with limitless funds.
I also need a few tool holders to get started since I have none now. So, a 'set' is what I am considering.

I have been doing some research about pricing and quality online and have pretty much ruled out an original Aloris or Dorian tool post since the prices are so high. The quality looks top notch for both of those but they are 2 or 3 times the cost of an import. Too much for a noob hobby shop.

A Phase II or Shars Aloris wedge style clone looks to be around the budget I'd like to spend.
Shars CXA is $358 for the tool post plus 5 tool holders from Grainger
Phase II CXA is $293 for the tool post plus 5 holders on E-Bay

I am also considering the multifix clones from createtool in China, they have had glowing reviews in terms of customer service on multiple web sites including PM and there is a nice review of the B-size holder on youtube. The quality there looks very nice indeed.

Create Tool B size is $357 for the holder plus 4 holders

My confusion is with the sizing of the multifix tool post. I measured the distance from the top of the compound to the center of the spindle and with a calipers it measured 53mm
So, that would put it at a multifix b size. Is that the size you have chosen for your SB16.
The width of my compound is 115mm

Does anyone have one of these tools on their SB 16? A photo or two would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Barry
 

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I have a Create Tool B on my 16" Kerry(Namsun) and love it, very nice fit and finish and works very well. I can only use 1" holders, the bigger ones won't go low enough to reach center height. I ended up getting 14? Holders. You won't regret it. I had them machine me a tee nut and bolt to match my compound, I think it was only like $75 and very nice work, it needed a couple swipes with a file to be a precision fit to my tee slot.
They can make internal and external retractable threading tools, I think they were $250 each, really slick


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The Multi-fix tool system is much more versatile than the Aloris/Phase II type. There are many different types and sized holders within a single range like "B", but the system is more expensive. The system is also stiffer. For instance, I use a size "B" on my 18x54 L&S with a 1/2 spacer under the head. The "B" size is stiff enough to take a 1/2" DOC in mild steel without issues. The advantage in doing that is that everything is much smaller and lighter than the correct size "C".
 
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Very nice, but I notice that you do not have a cut-off tool holder. May I suggest the PEWE tools BT25120. It is very new and a much better and stiffer design than others.

I have a few more holders not shown, including the Create tool cut-off holder and a insert cut-off tool holder that goes in a regular tool block, I got it from Curtis (exkenna)
Thanks for the tip though


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The Multifix system looks like a great way to go. I would note that, on my SB 16, the Aloris CXA toolpost really needs a 1/2" to 3/4" riser added underneath it. Some tool configurations can't lower far enough to reach the spindle centerline using the adjuster nut. I've been meaning to make one, just haven't gotten around to it yet as it's too easy to simply wedge the holder above the top of the post. #lazy
 
So, as Lucile nears completion, I am in need of a more modern tool post than the original lantern one that came with the Lathe. Bare in mind I am not working with limitless funds.
I also need a few tool holders to get started since I have none now. So, a 'set' is what I am considering.

I have been doing some research about pricing and quality online and have pretty much ruled out an original Aloris or Dorian tool post since the prices are so high. The quality looks top notch for both of those but they are 2 or 3 times the cost of an import. Too much for a noob hobby shop.

A Phase II or Shars Aloris wedge style clone looks to be around the budget I'd like to spend.
Shars CXA is $358 for the tool post plus 5 tool holders from Grainger
Phase II CXA is $293 for the tool post plus 5 holders on E-Bay

I am also considering the multifix clones from createtool in China, they have had glowing reviews in terms of customer service on multiple web sites including PM and there is a nice review of the B-size holder on youtube. The quality there looks very nice indeed.

Create Tool B size is $357 for the holder plus 4 holders
Hit "pause" for a moment, and factor in something else, Barry.

ALL of these systems are optimized for working with Carbides and their even more exotic cousins.

All of those "systems" rely on HIGHLY standardized and highly repeatable positioning of inserts in the toolholders that go INTO THEIR "toolholder toolholders".

First observation is thet 4 or 5 "holder holders" will surely get you started, but 8 to 12 will be seen as "essential" in due course.

OK.. You can certainly grow the rest of that collection gradually.

But what you need to price-in right up-front and may NOT yet have done is something sharp to put INTO those 4, 8, or 12 toolholder-toolholders.

Put another way.. your economic / budget commitment is not "just" to a quick-change tooling system.

Your greater cost commitment is to its "consumables". The insertable tooling and the inserts it must carry.

This all makes SO much economic sense for busy "revenue" shops, where time is SERIOUS money, that the use of HSS has gone almost unheard of.

None of these "systems" are meant for HSS anyway. They do not miss a wink of sleep over that. Nor do their commercial users.

Absent those hard-edged Required Delivery Dates and a full shift, already over-booked?

You may miss a far larger chunk out of your budget than you can see worth the effort to sustain.

The lathe you are planning to mount all this money atop of struggles to take advantage of carbide tooling even if you did have the revenue to offset those costs.

Might want to "pause", re-assess, and do something that is a better match to what the overall machine's environment is at its best with.
 
It cost me over $3k for all the tool holders, the insert holders and a bunch of inserts( both Al and steel types) That includes 4 or 5 boring bars.
The stupid proprietary Komet threading inserts were $300 for two, probably last me two life times


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It cost me over $3k for all the tool holders, the insert holders and a bunch of inserts( both Al and steel types) That includes 4 or 5 boring bars.
The stupid proprietary Komet threading inserts were $300 for two, probably last me two life times

Only 3 large? N'er mind the odd-man-out Komet. Hopefully they paid for their own whores.

Sounds to me as if you did your research, shopped hard, and bought wisely.

Easy peasy to triple that 3 large, busy shop.

There can't be much over 30 thousand possible sizes and types and shapes and coatings of inserts to choose from, yah? And EVERYBODY knows that 80-90 percent have been replaced with better ones. Just not everybody agrees WHICH are WHICH.

:)

But even 3 HUNDRED bucks puts a Helluva dent in a hobby budget on top of 4 hundred on a toolpost.
 
For best price on import CXA sets and extra holders look at CDCO tools. I'd agree with thermite that you'll soon want at least 10 to maintain the advantage of a QCTP, I have 10 and am about to order at least 5 more, and I'm strickly a hobbiest as well. It's just so nice not to have to change tools out of the holder and then re-find center height. The multifix looks great but is a pricey system for a hobbiest, though it's likely a one time cost that you'll get enjoyment out of so maybe justifiable.

I'm not sure if thermite is trying to have you reconsider a QCTP altogether....He's likely right about your RPM limitations keeping you from running much carbide. But there's nothing keeping you from running different HSS tools in a QCTP. You still have the advantage of quick change out and maintained center height. With sharpening you might have to adjust a little, but you'll still be way ahead in terms of convenience. My lathe came with a 4-way turret and I'm quite sure I'll never use it again.
 
Thanks for all the responses guys, I understand that the SB16 is not of the carbide insert era and will struggle to run the spindle at anywhere near the speed required by a CNMG or similar insert to perform as designed in terms of chip breaking and finish quality but my thinking is that regardless of what choice of sharp thing you put in the holder holder [emoji846], that starting out with the right tool post in terms of spindle centerline and rigidity or quality is a separate question.

I think the multifix B is a good size for my lathe from a center of spindle point of view and the quality of create tool looks very good to me. So I am leaning that way right now.
Yes, the 4 tool holders (that are in the set) is not enough for a commercial shop but it’s 4 more than I have right now. And I don’t mind paying a bit more later if I think I have the right foundation.

Although, I’d (still) love to hear from someone who has the B size on a South Bend 16. (Photos please)

My plan for sharp things is to try some CCMT or DCMT inserts in 3/4 inch or 1 inch shank insert holders and if that is not satisfactory then to go down the HSS road. As a noob, that seems a bit more challenging. Another learning curve.






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My lathe came with a 4-way turret and I'm quite sure I'll never use it again.

Naturally, I chuckle every time I hear that and keep an eye out to buy yet-another 4-Way cheaply. I think I have six already.

Yah. They are bulky, take up a good deal of space, can block yer view.

But they are also dead-easy to get a good deal more rigid support for a cheaper tool-tip out of. Any Speed. Any cutter material.

The main killer of 4-Way "convenience"?

Ever' body thinks they have to "shim" to adjust tool-tip height.

Too few ever bother to make up a few ramps or wedges so all that is needed is to SLIDE the tip to height. That dumb. That simple. That effective.

Some 4-Way are even made with their side slots already at an angle. An even more rare few are on swivels to PICK an angle.

Y'all just keep discarding them. Please!

We few opportunistic Old Bastards are grateful as to how very CHEAP that makes it for us to keep getting more good ones!

Our idea of "Quick Change", after all is to pop the entire 4-Way out, typically three tools in it, seldom ever four and LEAVE THEM in it.

Slide in another 4-Way, already tooled for the job we set that one up for. Think steel. Shiney-wood. Brass. Plastics.

The difference in functionality is therefore not as great as first appears.

The cost savings - for a hobby-not-revenue shop - can be substantial.

:)
 
Hit "pause" for a moment, and factor in something else, Barry.

ALL of these systems are optimized for working with Carbides and their even more exotic cousins.

All of those "systems" rely on HIGHLY standardized and highly repeatable positioning of inserts in the toolholders that go INTO THEIR "toolholder toolholders".

First observation is thet 4 or 5 "holder holders" will surely get you started, but 8 to 12 will be seen as "essential" in due course.

OK.. You can certainly grow the rest of that collection gradually.

But what you need to price-in right up-front and may NOT yet have done is something sharp to put INTO those 4, 8, or 12 toolholder-toolholders.

Put another way.. your economic / budget commitment is not "just" to a quick-change tooling system.

Your greater cost commitment is to its "consumables". The insertable tooling and the inserts it must carry.

This all makes SO much economic sense for busy "revenue" shops, where time is SERIOUS money, that the use of HSS has gone almost unheard of.

None of these "systems" are meant for HSS anyway. They do not miss a wink of sleep over that. Nor do their commercial users.

Absent those hard-edged Required Delivery Dates and a full shift, already over-booked?

You may miss a far larger chunk out of your budget than you can see worth the effort to sustain.

The lathe you are planning to mount all this money atop of struggles to take advantage of carbide tooling even if you did have the revenue to offset those costs.

Might want to "pause", re-assess, and do something that is a better match to what the overall machine's environment is at its best with.

I rarely disagree with you despite your backasswards English, but I have been a user of the Multi-fix system on 3 lathes for over 30 years and I rarely use carbide anything. I use almost exclusively cobalt HSS tooling and the Multi-fix works perfectly.
 
I rarely disagree with you despite your backasswards English, but I have been a user of the Multi-fix system on 3 lathes for over 30 years and I rarely use carbide anything. I use almost exclusively cobalt HSS tooling and the Multi-fix works perfectly.

Well, yes, works perfectly for you, though I'd consider it downright DAFT to make all that investment, then still work HSS with it on basic white-bread South Bend lathes.

I guess one COULD even buy pre-grounds, or set up in-house to pre-grind to fixed sizes, but too much like work to keep adjusting after each touch-up grind otherwise. 4-way & wedges would do as well for less investment in holders (as-in none at all).

Regardless. Your spend has been amortized over a period of 30 years.

I'm sure you love your South Bends a great deal to bless them with that magnificent gift, but this poor soul is just starting out.

He has said more than once he is budget constrained to get INTO the game of over-equipping South Bend lathes for the pure love of them with just the first 4 or 5 holder-holders, no cutters yet priced, any tribe..

I might consider a Multifix wise for the HBX-360-BC. But I have 7 HP and over 3,000 RPM on tap perched atop close-on 3,000 lbs Avoir of SERIOUSLY rigid 14" X 30" lathe (my one has the first-generation Cast Iron base, not the weldment).

Same again a 10EE, heavier, faster, and stiffer yet, smaller 10 X 20 work-envelope.

South Bends do not ordinarily have ANY of those rich rations. They are good enough at what they are good enough at, but emulating heavy lathes is not on their dance-card.

Money spent on a Multifix and 4, 5, later 10 to 15 holder-holders is never going to make the lathe heavier, stiffer, nor faster, even after 30 years appreciation just because it was easier to swap tools.

I don't actually CARE. His lathe. His budget. His chips.

I DO think he needs to look at the whole "system" investment and the benefit - or not - for the lathe he's mounting it onto. Not think: "OK, I'm set for life, now" with just the initial set.

Aloris holders, PM members fill-in with no-name or even DIY. I don't LIKE those. The Multifix IS better. But at least they don't cost as much to tool-up.

Multifix holders, "DIY" is not so easy, nor are there as many alternative sources. They are expensive.

"Keep it cheap" on what he has, he might save enough to trade up to a medium lathe, if not a heavy.

THEN he'll want to rethink it, might still have some money available.

2CW
 
Naturally, I chuckle every time I hear that and keep an eye out to buy yet-another 4-Way cheaply. I think I have six already.

I'd mail you mine but I'm almost positive it'd do you no good, it's actually well built and has the ball bearing indexing every so many degrees. For the right tools it works great. The issue is the design of my lathe and said toolpost. It plain doesn't work for a lot of tools. The issue on my lathe is the 1" compound to CL height and the 3/8" design tool height of the 4-way (1/2" max tool). This is on a 12" lathe! You can put a 1/2" boring bar in it but not adjust to center. Parting blade holder has to be held in yet another tool holder which puts the blade hanging off the side of the compound with no support. AXA tool holder fixes all of that and adds convenience for not a huge outlay of cash. It can actually be setup more rigidly in my case.
 
Well, yes, works perfectly for you, though I'd consider it downright DAFT to make all that investment, then still work HSS with it on basic white-bread South Bend lathes.

I guess one COULD even buy pre-grounds, or set up in-house to pre-grind to fixed sizes, but too much like work to keep adjusting after each touch-up grind otherwise. 4-way & wedges would do as well for less investment in holders (as-in none at all).

Regardless. Your spend has been amortized over a period of 30 years.

I'm sure you love your South Bends a great deal to bless them with that magnificent gift, but this poor soul is just starting out.

He has said more than once he is budget constrained to get INTO the game of over-equipping South Bend lathes for the pure love of them with just the first 4 or 5 holder-holders, no cutters yet priced, any tribe..

I might consider a Multifix wise for the HBX-360-BC. But I have 7 HP and over 3,000 RPM on tap perched atop close-on 3,000 lbs Avoir of SERIOUSLY rigid 14" X 30" lathe (my one has the first-generation Cast Iron base, not the weldment).

Same again a 10EE, heavier, faster, and stiffer yet, smaller 10 X 20 work-envelope.

South Bends do not ordinarily have ANY of those rich rations. They are good enough at what they are good enough at, but emulating heavy lathes is not on their dance-card.

Money spent on a Multifix and 4, 5, later 10 to 15 holder-holders is never going to make the lathe heavier, stiffer, nor faster, even after 30 years appreciation just because it was easier to swap tools.

I don't actually CARE. His lathe. His budget. His chips.

I DO think he needs to look at the whole "system" investment and the benefit - or not - for the lathe he's mounting it onto. Not think: "OK, I'm set for life, now" with just the initial set.

Aloris holders, PM members fill-in with no-name or even DIY. I don't LIKE those. The Multifix IS better. But at least they don't cost as much to tool-up.

Multifix holders, "DIY" is not so easy, nor are there as many alternative sources. They are expensive.

"Keep it cheap" on what he has, he might save enough to trade up to a medium lathe, if not a heavy.

THEN he'll want to rethink it, might still have some money available.

2CW

What makes you think I have only SB machines? In fact I have a SB 10K that uses a Multi-fix A size, a late model SB13x40 (Korean) on a Multi-fix B and a late model L&S 18x54 Powerturn also on a Multi-fix B. I also have every type tool holder available for size B and I can share them across both lathes so equipped. I didn't pick them up all at the same time nor did I buy them all new. I picked up the holders as they became available on the German eBay at friendly prices over many years. The Multi-fix is the most common system in use in Europe, so there are lots around. Not so much in the US.

Further, the OP will most likely trade up beyond the old 16 SB. So his investment in the "B" system can be migrated to his new machine without issue. So, in the grand scheme of things, making the Multi-fix investment now can make some sense.
 
Thermite,
By the way, the use of the Multi-fix size A on the little SB 10K made a world of difference in stiffness and usability, amazingly so. Remember, I bought that machine directly from SB new. It is not a clapped out special.
 








 
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