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  1. #1
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    Default My first lathe and a question

    lathe-dscn1626-1-.jpgimg_20200125_134811229-1-.jpgtag-1-.jpgrotary-table-1-.jpgimg_20200125_213956623-1-.jpgI just put $500 down on a lightly used 13" X 5' SB. It has a complete taper attachment, a saddle micrometer stop, a single tumbler quick change gear box, tail stock, quick change tool post with 4 tool holders and the original 1hp motor. To agree to the deal at $1000 I told him I wanted a Troyke U9 rotary table and an alarm device Mfg Co. Ademco alarm bell 12V I saw on his shelf, he agreed. Its all located in an unheated garage at the back of his yard. He's owned it a few years but due to health issues he wants to sell it. It does have some surface rust on the chuck and pulleys. I got it to come clean with some steel wool I brought with me. I didn't take enouph pictures while I was there.. no idea why. was busy looking at the condition of the gears and saddle I guess. I CAN NOT catch a fingernail on the ways. He did not have any lathe wrenches and the tailstock was tight so I couldn't see the serial numbers. I looked for flaking on the ways near or poking out from under the head stock and I didn't see any.
    Being it's a single tumbler unit that leads me to believe its a 40's unit.
    Winter in SE Michigan has been a bit wet this winter and he said I need to wait until his yard dry's or freezes before we go driving on the yard. I told him id put plywood down and use a pallet jack to get it to the front yard but he said he'd rather not get the lathe stuck in the yard either.
    Now the question.
    Is it possible to have flame hardened ways?
    I ask because I saw a tag on the bed under the tailstock but it had been painted over.
    From my little research I only see this rectangle tag in this location on units with flame hardened ways.
    I went into this deal with the notion that they did not flame harden beds till the 50s and I thought the single tumbler was a 40s identifier. So if it is this would be a huge bonus.
    How do I get off paint without destroying the tag?
    Last edited by Green machinist; 01-29-2020 at 08:01 AM.

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    All you need is the serial number, which is on the bed at the tail stock end. This number will be enough to determine the date of manufacture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Green machinist View Post
    I looked for checking under the head stock and I didn't see any.

    Is it possible to have flame hardened ways?

    I ask because I saw a tag on the bed under the tailstock but it had been painted over.
    From my little research I only see this rectangle tag in this location on units with flame hardened ways.

    How do I get off paint without destroying the tag?
    What do you mean by "checking"?

    If the lathe is original, then it is not possible to have flame hardened ways. You're correct in that FH became an option in the late '50s.

    The tag you see is probably a War Production tag. The tag is brass, so at worse, you will remove its original paint, which you can repaint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SLK001 View Post
    What do you mean by "checking"?

    If the lathe is original, then it is not possible to have flame hardened ways. You're correct in that FH became an option in the late '50s.

    The tag you see is probably a War Production tag. The tag is brass, so at worse, you will remove its original paint, which you can repaint.
    I mis spoke I didn't see any flaking on the ways near or poking out from under the head stock.
    I can't tell what this tag is made out of but it's right behind the leedscrew on the bed about 1x6" the flame hardened ways tag is printed with black paint so if it is I didn't want to damage it. So I guess I'll see what it is when I get it home and cleaned up.

    Edit.
    I looked up this war production tag. It could very well be that. I just read that could be why I don't see flaking. They cut corners for speed and price. Sad face. Any other things I should be concerned with about it being war production.
    Also how do I clean the paint off that tag cause it's just painted red. How do I take off the new paint but leave the original red printed paint?
    Not my lathe below but tag is in same spot
    screenshot_20200129-091750.jpg

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    We have a war production Heavy 10 in the shop and all the tags are embossed enameled aluminum. Depending on the paint, it might just be easiest to avoid chemicals and gently pick most of it off then follow up with a wire brush. Our war tag is in the same location as yours.

    They did cut corners on the war machines, but to what degree really depended on the manufacturer as there was no government standard or mandate telling them what to do. They simply had a demand for more machines that they had to figure out how to fill despite material/time shortages. If they could keep up with the demand and had the needed materials then no corners were cut, and some builders didn't even put war tags on the machines that were effected. The tags were just to let the buyers/operators know why this machine didn't look as good as the previous ones, and from what I've read, looks were a large part of what was sacrificed. Lots of builders couldn't get aluminum for guards and hand-wheels, so they just made them out of cast iron instead. Instead of spending 8 hours putting a nice smooth finish on parts, they did an ok finish in 2 hours. The worst they might have done is sacrifice a high bearing point scraping job for a quicker one, but the demand on the machines was still the same. They had to hold the same tolerances and be just as dependable. IMO if you have a "war machine" that is still making quality parts after 80+ years, you have nothing to worry about. The sub par paint is long gone anyway, and whatever corners were cut in the scraping and fitting have stood the test of time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Green machinist View Post
    I mis spoke I didn't see any flaking on the ways near or poking out from under the head stock.
    I can't tell what this tag is made out of but it's right behind the leedscrew on the bed about 1x6" the flame hardened ways tag is printed with black paint so if it is I didn't want to damage it. So I guess I'll see what it is when I get it home and cleaned up.

    Edit.
    I looked up this war production tag. It could very well be that. I just read that could be why I don't see flaking. They cut corners for speed and price. Sad face. Any other things I should be concerned with about it being war production.
    Also how do I clean the paint off that tag cause it's just painted red. How do I take off the new paint but leave the original red printed paint?
    Not my lathe below but tag is in same spot
    screenshot_20200129-091750.jpg
    Your worried about all the wrong things. The serial number is stamped on the bed top at the tail stock end. That machine is way too old to have a hardened bed. You need to be concerned with bed and carriage wear.There are enough threads in the archive to tell you how to check it. Another point of wear is the cross feed and compound screw and nut. Think about the fact that the lathe is pushing 70 years old. It would be amazing if it wasn't all clapped out.There is never a free lunch. As a green machinist the last thing you need is to have to ask yourself if the observed error after you screw up a job was your fault or the machine's. An experienced guy can make good parts with a clapped out lathe, but as a beginner, you don't know enough.

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    If you don't see any flaking, then your bed was most likely reground sometime in its like. If it was done properly, you should see some Turcite under the tailstock and the carriage. The fact that "you can't catch a nail on the ways" leads me to believe that it was reground.

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    The tail stock doesn't ride on it's entire V way so another way to check for wear or a past rebuild is to see if there is a difference between the top riding surface and the lower un-used strip of way.
    sb1-6.jpg
    These are the ways on our machine. You can see the tail ends of scraping marks on the unworn portion of the way.

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    For that price you really can't go to far wrong !! Taper attachment is worth have of the price ,not a high use item but wonderful to have when you need it.

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    No wear ridge near the headstock is certainly a positive indication. Overall, doesn't look as though that machine has seen heavy use and neglect in a production shop environment to me.
    Saddle wear is usually more significant than the ways themselves IMO. Put an indicator base on the tailstock, push it up against the saddle, and place the dial indicator on the front left of the saddle. Roll the carriage towards the end of the bed, pushing the tailstock and indicator base along with it. The tailstock ways are usually far less worn, and the amount of drop near the chuck will give you an indication of overall condition.

    Aside from bed/saddle wear, next biggie are the spindle bearings.

    ETA:
    IFFF it's in good shape, that Pratt Burnerd Set-Tru is a quality chuck; depending on spindle thread/backplate, worth quite a bit itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SLK001 View Post
    If you don't see any flaking, then your bed was most likely reground sometime in its like. If it was done properly, you should see some Turcite under the tailstock and the carriage. The fact that "you can't catch a nail on the ways" leads me to believe that it was reground.

    I'd be ok with a regrind too. I watch vintage machinery with Keith do that turcite. So I'll know what to look for when I get it home.
    I think that might be likely cause there was a little over a 1/4 turn backlash on the cross slide. Thanks for the help

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    Quote Originally Posted by M.B. Naegle View Post
    The tail stock doesn't ride on it's entire V way so another way to check for wear or a past rebuild is to see if there is a difference between the top riding surface and the lower un-used strip of way.
    sb1-6.jpg
    These are the ways on our machine. You can see the tail ends of scraping marks on the unworn portion of the way.
    Ya I don't see any scraping/ flaking marks and no visible ridge wear on the ways that I can see or feel with a fingernail. Thanks for the help I will check the riding surface with a dial gauge when I get it home

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve-l View Post
    Your worried about all the wrong things. The serial number is stamped on the bed top at the tail stock end. That machine is way too old to have a hardened bed. You need to be concerned with bed and carriage wear.There are enough threads in the archive to tell you how to check it. Another point of wear is the cross feed and compound screw and nut. Think about the fact that the lathe is pushing 70 years old. It would be amazing if it wasn't all clapped out.There is never a free lunch. As a green machinist the last thing you need is to have to ask yourself if the observed error after you screw up a job was your fault or the machine's. An experienced guy can make good parts with a clapped out lathe, but as a beginner, you don't know enough.
    Ya I haven't been able to see the serial numbers yet cause like I said the tailstock was locked when I saw the machine and he didn't have any tools in that building.i get the concept that a green machinist like myself might have trouble determining who's at fault but I also don't recommend a newb to go spend $15k + on a similar sized machine for a hobby/farm work. I intend to check the wear fully when I get it home with several technics I've read from this site. thanks for the help

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    Quote Originally Posted by tobnpr View Post
    No wear ridge near the headstock is certainly a positive indication. Overall, doesn't look as though that machine has seen heavy use and neglect in a production shop environment to me.
    Saddle wear is usually more significant than the ways themselves IMO. Put an indicator base on the tailstock, push it up against the saddle, and place the dial indicator on the front left of the saddle. Roll the carriage towards the end of the bed, pushing the tailstock and indicator base along with it. The tailstock ways are usually far less worn, and the amount of drop near the chuck will give you an indication of overall condition.

    Aside from bed/saddle wear, next biggie are the spindle bearings.

    ETA:
    IFFF it's in good shape, that Pratt Burnerd Set-Tru is a quality chuck; depending on spindle thread/backplate, worth quite a bit itself.

    I have not heard of that method of checking wear but I will defiantly try it thanks a lot for the help.
    I am going to check the spindle too since because of it being a war production I hear it might have cast iron bearings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnEvans View Post
    For that price you really can't go to far wrong !! Taper attachment is worth have of the price ,not a high use item but wonderful to have when you need it.
    That's how I felt too especially with the turn table and bell.
    As soon as I saw the bell I knew if I was going to make the deal I was going to have to have that too.
    Attachment 277008
    I took a video of it running too. I'm not sure what the rules are for YouTube links.
    It's just like the bell in the basement of silence of the lambs. haha

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    I pose a new question now as well. For all the videos and reading I've seen no one goes into explaining how the quick change gear box works on a single tumbler unit. How do I go from power feed to threading? Is that the 3 way position handle on the top? or the Push/pull gear on the side gear train? or just the one tumbler has a slow slow speed or a combination of all of it.
    I did watch one video saying that top handle can be changed while its running because it used paws to engage the gears. I've seen rebuild videos and it does have paws but I don't know how I feel about doing while running. It's been around this long I don't want to mess it up now.

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    There is a lever on the apron that gives longitudinal feed, half-nut engage and cross slide feed. The numbers on the gear box tell you everything. Here's the gearbox for a H10:



    Say the selector was set at position B (it currently is not in ANY position) and far left position (call it B-1). If the lever on the apron was set in the middle (for threading), it would cut an 8 TPI thread. If the lever was set at the top (for longitudinal feed), it would give you a feed of 0.0418 inches per revolution. If the lever was set at the bottom (for cross slide feed), it would give you a feed rate of 0.0418 x 0.375 or 0.0157 inches per revolution.

    As for shifting "on-the-fly", it isn't a synchronized transmission, so always STOP the lathe for shifting gears.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SLK001 View Post
    ...

    ...
    Why do all these tags show incorrect feeds? The feed is not in Thousandths, it is in Inches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yan Wo View Post
    Why do all these tags show incorrect feeds? The feed is not in Thousandths, it is in Inches.
    I know... It bothers me, too. That's why I made this chart, printed it out and had it laminated to stick above my lathe:



    NOTE: If anyone wants this chart, don't take this one. I have a high resolution version in a .PDF that I can email you.

    I would attach it here, but a .PDF file is limited to 19.5kB. This file is ~175kB.

    Also, it only works for a HEAVY 10 extended range gear box, like above.

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  23. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green machinist View Post
    I pose a new question now as well. For all the videos and reading I've seen no one goes into explaining how the quick change gear box works on a single tumbler unit. How do I go from power feed to threading? Is that the 3 way position handle on the top? or the Push/pull gear on the side gear train? or just the one tumbler has a slow slow speed or a combination of all of it.
    I did watch one video saying that top handle can be changed while its running because it used paws to engage the gears. I've seen rebuild videos and it does have paws but I don't know how I feel about doing while running. It's been around this long I don't want to mess it up now.
    The single tumbler in front, 3 way lever on top, and the sliding gear on the side are all used together to determine your feed rate(see your threading chart). Power feed to threading switch is done at the apron. The power feeding lever is up for saddle feed, down for cross feed, and middle is neutral which it has to be in neutral in order to engage the half-nuts for threading. Otherwise the half-nuts simply won't close.


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