SB 16 - New to me, tell me what this thing is.
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  1. #1
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    Default SB 16 - New to me, tell me what this thing is.

    So I bought this SB16 - No idea what the vintage is. I've got to get a 220 Motor unless there's some way to wire the MultiSpeed that's in it up for VFD but I assume not. I thought it was something like 2300lbs but I guess a SB16 with 8' bed might be closer to 3500? It was definitely harder to move around than the Bridgeport.

    20191021_101837.jpg

    It has a turret that's in pretty rough shape. I guess it has the "Handle Lever Collet Chuck"? Is it for working with some very specific sized round-stock? At the moment I feel like I'd rather have the extra capacity through the spindle but feel free to tell me if it's actually worth having; I do have a small selection of collets for it. And finally I'm curious what this business on the far side of the saddle is? It has various adjustments... is this for tapers?

    20191021_101804.jpg

    Also, what exactly does the handle (the one on the left side of the headstock that I assume is for the "Handle Lever Collet Chuck") do? I assume I spin something to install a collet but... It's not immediately obvious to me what any of that assembly does.

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    yes that's a taper attachment, (as a quick search would have told you), and the lever collet closer, which should take less than 20 seconds to remove, and less to reinstall is very handy to have. collets are commonly available to accommodate round, hexagon, and square stock. It probably takes 5C collets. look them up, and you will see the range of sizes available. commonly available in 1/64 increments.

    also, that is a through spindle lever type collet attachment not a "collet chuck", search for operating instructions for that.

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    Handy stuff to read from the old days

    http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1617/17726.pdf

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    You spin the knurled end of the tube to get your collet almost closed, then insert your material, then push the handle away from you to pull the collet fully closed. When you want to remove your material, pull the handle back toward you and you will return to the "almost closed" position and your material can be removed.

    Once you use your collet attachment, there is no way you will ever sell it. And, as has been said, it will come off in 20 seconds.

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    So, you just bought your first lathe? Seems like you found a good one with attachments most of us wish every lathe came with!

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    Post WW2, though 50's or 60's not sure, but the double tumbler arms on quick change gear box started late 40's, early 50's I want to say. Serial number stamped in between ways, on tail stock end will help identify year built.

    Currently a drive plate is mounted on chuck side. That will unscrew off spindle, and you can mount a normal chuck. But chuck will need a back plate with spindle thread size. 16's are 2 3/8-6 thread. You can find one here:
    8" Semi-Machined Threaded Back Plate 2-3/8"- 6 For All Plain Back Lathe Chuck | eBay

    The gizmo on other side of saddle is a taper attachment. That'll stay on, unless you want to change addition parts. Just leave it at zero.

    The collet closer handle on head stock, opposite chuck side. That can be removed and stored. A very nice accessory to have though. There are collet racks that can attach to bed to store collets plus that handle. If you pull drive plate off chuck end, the inside of spindle is tapered for the collets, 5C is the size. You would use collets without drive plate or chuck, but a thread protector would screw onto spindle.

    Other nice accessories I can see, that not all have are chip pan, plus you have the coolant/chip ramps that lead into chip pan, very nice to have.

    You also have a micrometer stop attached to bed in front of apron, very handy.

    The drive plate on chuck side is also handy for doing odd work that won't fit in chuck, and hard to find those drive plates with spindle thread size.

    You said turret, Do you mean the tool post ? If so I can't see it clearly, but there's a bunch of options you can do there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cyanidekid View Post
    also, that is a through spindle lever type collet attachment not a "collet chuck", search for operating instructions for that.
    I was kind of quoting from this old spec-sheet.
    3crop.jpg

    Thanks johnoder, looks like there's some good stuff in there, even covers operation of the handle-lever draw in.

    SLK001 - awesome. I'll be curious to see how often I'm able to use it. Seems like it would be incredible in a production environment where you were always working with a particular size stock.

    dalmatiangirl61 - I've been watching them for a long time. I probably would have rather had a gap-bed and the option for metric threads but I think it was a pretty good deal.

    PMtexasgunsmith - Thanks for the write up. I've got the turret for it too but it's missing the big handle, and the handle on top of the turret, the stops are all bent up, gears are filled with chips... it's going to be need some work. About that micrometer stop, does the saddle just run into the stop and the clutch slips or something? What about with the half nut? I'll be doing some reading but I've been pretty curious about the stop.

    20191021_101412-crop.jpg

    Here are the collets, a tool holder, live center, I think a second micrometer stop and such... and I guess a goodyear belt for the cone pulleys? It's not very flexible at this point but I'm not sure it ever was. I've got a 9" 4 Jaw and I guess it's probably like a 7" or 8" 3 Jaw, I put the driveplate on just to see if it fit.

    20191022_092239-1-.jpg

    I haven't had a chance to play with it much at all, picked it up on Saturday; I need to get a motor on order for it, I don't think there's any way around that but I was excited to see it's only 2HP; everything gets cheaper that way.

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    Don't run into the carriage stop under power. The clutch won't clutch enough and the half-nuts won't clutch at all. This is called "crashing your lathe" and serious damage can occur. Use the stop for the "final 0.05 of an inch" and finish it with hand feeding only.

    I believe that the V belt is for the motor. Your cone pulleys will use a leather belt or equivalent.

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    Dirt, I don't notice a spindle adapter for the collets or a thread protector. You'll need both of those to make use of the collets. If I can make a suggestion, save your money on the motor replacement and VFD. If you have the 2 speed three phase motor now, that will give you 12 speeds overall. Get yourself a "static" phase converter (220 single phase in, and three phase out). An aquaintance of mine has one and it works just fine. You still use your lathe switch, however, you must start in low speed, wait for a "click" sound from the converter, and switch to high speed. It just takes a second. I use a rotary converter for my machines and on my 2 speed 14.5" I do the same thing. I start in low, wait for motor to come up to speed and then switch to high. I don't have to, I'm just anal. Since you are limited to about 1200 spindle rpm due to the bearings, and I doubt you'll be turning anything so picky about spindle speed that you'll need to speed up or down 5 rpm, the static converter and the lathes 12 speed selections will be just fine. If you will need to be that picky about spindle speed you need a variable speed lathe. Your optimum results will come from the correct speed selection AND tool bit sharpening. Some things to think about. Good luck. PB

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    Quote Originally Posted by packardbill View Post
    If I can make a suggestion, save your money on the motor replacement and VFD. If you have the 2 speed three phase motor now, that will give you 12 speeds overall. Get yourself a "static" phase converter (220 single phase in, and three phase out)
    The trouble is the motor is 460V; otherwise I'd gladly leave it. I'm not aware of a solution that doesn't involve a lot of copper to get around that. At this point VFDs are so cheap, it's a good way to get to 3-phase even if you don't have to have the speed control.

    I'm not sure about the collets yet. Still fighting stuff at work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtEmpire View Post
    I was kind of quoting from this old spec-sheet.
    3crop.jpg

    PMtexasgunsmith - Thanks for the write up. I've got the turret for it too but it's missing the big handle, and the handle on top of the turret, the stops are all bent up, gears are filled with chips... it's going to be need some work. About that micrometer stop, does the saddle just run into the stop and the clutch slips or something? What about with the half nut? I'll be doing some reading but I've been pretty curious about the stop.

    I haven't had a chance to play with it much at all, picked it up on Saturday; I need to get a motor on order for it, I don't think there's any way around that but I was excited to see it's only 2HP; everything gets cheaper that way.
    SLK001 is correct, to leave it all engaged would crash the machine. The clutches won't slip. However I have found a trick that works for me:

    In part I use this trick because I have a clutch knob, that spins to release clutch. You have a lever with black ball head. So I believe you just lift lever, so you'll need to run yours to see what works better for you. For me turning clutch knob would actually drive apron or cross feed more into the work when I was attempting to release. . .

    So what I found is I leave clutch engaged, but I pull spring loaded handle when I have apron engaged. With that handle pulled (me holding it) when apron hits micrometer stop the machine wont crash. It will actually move the apron engage arm to neutral position using its own power.

    The spring loaded handle I mean is directly above clutch handle. The center position in neutral. Upward drives saddle. Downward drives crossfeed.

    In fact I almost never disengage clutch. I stop power to change direction. By leaving clutch engaged you can also lift spring loaded handle and let it fall into pin hole. works very smooth. As long as handle is pulled so that pin is out of hole, near the end of a cutting pass, it will never crash. I maintain feed speed right to the end of pass, and it pushes to neutral when it hits micrometer stop.

    I use same tactic for crossfeed also.

    Neutral position is for half nuts and threading. You cannot engage half nuts any other way, as there is a detent in apron to prevent it (unless someone modified).

    In your latest pics, one box looks like it has another micrometer stop, 3 jaws to a chuck, and a half moon deal called a rocker. the rocker is for a latern type tool post.

    In the 2nd box I see the lantern tool post.

    In another pic you have a turret tail stock end. For you, I would guess this will be less desirable. You have a regular toolroom tail stock end which is fine, plus has some advantages imo. Also your turret tail stock end is manual feed I believe, which makes it less desirable. I think you'll find the regular toolroom tail stock is more pleasant for using centers and drill bits. For centers just crank handle in and lock it down.

    I have a turret tailstock end which I like, but it is power feed. I like the turret also as I can keep a variety of things loaded and just rotate head to whichever I need. Should I use larger drill bits "manually", I need to hang on for dear life if they catch in work and start to drawl in the tail stock. Power feed is much better for drill bits, as gearing keeps tail stock from being drawn in. With using centers I need to kind of push my weight into tailstock and hold it as I lock tail stock down.

    Another FYI, as Packardbill said: 5C collets dont fit directly into the taper of spindle. There's an adapter that pops into spindle taper, then the 5c's into adapter. In my two pics, laying in chip pan to far right is a drill chuck, next to that chuck the shiny silver piece is that adapter. I don't have thread protector in pic.

    If your motor is 2 speed at 460v you can't change to low voltage. If its single speed 460v, you may be able to change connections in box on motor to do 230v. You'd have to pop the lid and count wires out of motor.

    22.jpg23.jpg
    Last edited by texasgunsmith; 10-22-2019 at 11:26 PM.

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    If the motor needs to be changed anyway, personally I'd avoid the 3-phase vfd and just run with a single phase 220v motor.

    Motors run via vfd should be "inverter duty" which are more expensive, plus you have the cost of the vfd. If your existing motor were 3 phase it would be a no-brainer as a vfd is cheaper than a new motor or phase converter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post

    Another FYI, as Packardbill said: 5C collets dont fit directly into the taper of spindle. There's an adapter that pops into spindle taper, then the 5c's into adapter. In my two pics, laying in chip pan to far right is a drill chuck, next to that chuck the shiny silver piece is that adapter. I don't have thread protector in pic.

    If your motor is 2 speed at 460v you can't change to low voltage. If its single speed 460v, you may be able to change connections in box on motor to do 230v. You'd have to pop the lid and count wires out of motor.
    Looks like I don't have the thread protector or adapter. I'm a little confused about this "collet" with just a single hole in it.

    20191023_204238.jpg

    Here's what I do have:

    20191023_205913.jpg

    Looks like the belt is for a hardinge; probably a neighbor of the machine. I suppose I might try to ebay it.

    Mine are pretty past it:

    20191023_205924.jpg

    I think the other set of jaws are for this chuck: internal/external? Pretty awesome to get them both.

    20191023_205834.jpg

    And then I guess it's a 10" 4 jaw.

    20191023_205859.jpg


    Quote Originally Posted by tobnpr View Post
    If the motor needs to be changed anyway, personally I'd avoid the 3-phase vfd and just run with a single phase 220v motor.

    Motors run via vfd should be "inverter duty" which are more expensive, plus you have the cost of the vfd. If your existing motor were 3 phase it would be a no-brainer as a vfd is cheaper than a new motor or phase converter.
    I'm going to pickup a 2HP 220 3 phase on the same frame for $200 tomorrow; I'm not sure how readily available single phase motors with a 1-1/8" spindle are; I haven't seen any around for under $300 (which is what motor+vfd will cost me) but if I'm not mistaken I wouldn't have reverse . I love the control the VFD gives me for startup... and I especially like the idea for a lathe and checking out how things are going to ride in a chuck in a controlled manner. I'm not personally too worried about the "inverter duty" stamp; if it dies, so be it, but I've got money that says it outlives me.

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    If you need a steady rest for that lathe look here:
    center rest
    These measure out to be 16" steady rests on risers. Check your bed width for the base.
    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtEmpire View Post

    Here's what I do have:
    Pretty sure those collets you have are not 5C, a pic below will show you what 5C look like.

    That belt definitely won't work. You can't use a solid, closed loop belt, not without tearing the machine down to replace it anyway. You need one that has a metal lacing seam you push a pin through. A 2nd pic below will show the seam.

    You can find the belts on ebay, but you need to tell them size. I also recommend Baltimore Belting where I got mine. You need to specify thickness, width of belt, and length. 3/16 thickness is fine. Use width of one spindle pulley step.

    For length, you may want to check where the adjustment is underneath, but generally without old belt, lower the handle on base. That's the handle on base by the door to access electric motor. Raising the handle just past 12 o'clock would loosen belt to change which steps on spindle pulley for spindle speed. Lowering the handle lowers electric motor with bottom pulleys to tighten belt for use. So lower handle, use a 1/4" rope and string it around a step of upper and lower pulleys to get measurement.

    With that measurement, with handle down, at a guess I would subtract a 1/2" from the measurement, and use that number as my length. There is some adjustment underneath to compensate, maybe get it in the middle of adjustment before measuring.

    I like Baltimore belting, think I paid $60 or $70 for mine, but I have wide steps. Call them directly on phone, don't try to order on website:
    Baltimore Belting – 766 E 25th St, Baltimore, MD 21218 (410) 338-1230

    Ebay link to something similar:
    SOUTH BEND,ATLAS,LOGAN DRIVE FLAT BELT 3/16" X 2" CUSTOM CUT,LATHE, Mill etc | eBay

    3 jaw chuck is fine for rough work, or if you dont need accuracy. A 4 jaw chuck is what you'll use most. as you can incrementally tighten or loosen each jaw while spinning chuck by hand, and using a dial indicator on work to get it dead nuts center.

    If you flip chucks over so jaws are down we can see if the back plates for your lathe are there.

    In your motor shopping, don't worry too much about that exact pulley fitting the new motor. The lathe only really needs two belts. Four belts is over kill. The spindle belt will slip before two belts will if you feed too much too fast. New 2 groove pulleys run $30 to $50 in a variety of ID and OD.

    25.jpg24.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    Pretty sure those collets you have are not 5C, a pic below will show you what 5C look like.
    Yes, those are 5C collets. They are "extended range", or "large diameter" style collets. Also know as "step collets". Some of them look like they are "machine your own size" style collets.

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    22.jpg23.jpg[/QUOTE]

    Nice looking lathe. You put some serious work into her. That model was my first venture into turret lathes. I moved on to W/S, but that lathe made me a very good living for a couple years.

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    The good news is the machine already has a flat belt for the cone pulleys that looks like it's in good shape. This was just a belt that came in the box. I assume for another machine that was near thi

    And yesh, I can confirm those collets thread into the spindle fine; but I guess you need a closer for these larger collets. Unfortunately it didn't come with any of the smaller ones that I think would have come with the machine.

    I hadn't thought about the how much v-belts would lend themselves to fitting random motors. Still, I'm not looking for a project, Ideally it will bolt on without modification (not beyond cutting a keyway)...

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    You will need a closer for ALL collets.

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    Looks a lot like my lathe. Mine is a 16 inch 6 foot and is a 1969 vintage.

    I do believe that those lathes came with 3 hp motors - at least mine did. I went back to a 3 phase motor to have the variable speed. I would sell my 3 hp single phase motor with contactors (makes the motor reversing).

    My pulley has a bad groove so I run 3 belts. One would thing that 4 belts is overkill, but it really needs the 4 belts for starting even with the vfd. The pulleys are small and they slip very easily during starting.

    I have been searching for a new pulley but have thus far struck out.

    lathe.jpg


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