Smoke

Kevin T · May 20, 2020

I have been using a cutting fluid called "Drill Chill" by Zep and man does it smoke a lot on the 1018 I am working with. It's humid here so I usually don't open the doors but when my shop fills up with smoke I have no choice so I would rather not use it. I inherited a case of it so I am wondering if there is anything I can learn here from the smoke. I machined this same material, same operations and same cutter geometry with Tap Magic and no smoke and good production.

Got me thinking...

Is it just that I can "see" the smoke with the Zep and I'm breathing in all the same crap with the TM?

I know the smoke means there is heat but if I am getting good production and the machine seems happy is the smoke telling me I need to change up some stuff? I am just roughing now but I don't want to mess up the work piece, or my body either.

Couple more smoke pics for fun.

mcload · May 20, 2020

Yeah, I wouldn't want to be breathing that stuff either. Might as well use motor oil!
I'll bet there will be some specialized water-based cutting fluids that will get mentioned.
I've always loved those constant flooding systems as seen on CNC machines.

PMc

Kevin T · May 20, 2020

mcload said:
Yeah, I wouldn't want to be breathing that stuff either. Might as well use motor oil!
I'll bet there will be some specialized water-based cutting fluids that will get mentioned.
I've always loved those constant flooding systems as seen on CNC machines.

PMc

I could rig some kind of drip system but I'm not sure I want anything in the way while I'm learning. I could also rig up a shop vac to catch some of the chips and re-route the smoke to outside but shop vacs are noisy so it's not as enjoyable to work when it's on.

rklopp · May 20, 2020

Can you change to carbide tooling and run without coolant? It'll be way less stinky and you can run 3X as fast at least.

TDegenhart · May 20, 2020

My experience is go dry or flood. You could try a fume extractor or fans and open doors and windows. Also a gas mask.

Tom

Kevin T · May 20, 2020

rklopp said:
Can you change to carbide tooling and run without coolant? It'll be way less stinky and you can run 3X as fast at least.

I don't really have the holders for carbide but maybe I could figure out a test since I have a few carbide bits around.

Kevin T · May 20, 2020

TDegenhart said:
My experience is go dry or flood. You could try a fume extractor or fans and open doors and windows. Also a gas mask.

Tom

So flood keeps it so cool there is no smoke yeah? I think I'll try dry later today. The worst thing about that is cutter life yes?

pavt · May 20, 2020

TDegenhart said:
My experience is go dry or flood. You could try a fume extractor or fans and open doors and windows. Also a gas mask.

Tom

Same here, either go flood or go dry. Re Flood cooling with oil, take a look at what pipe threading machines do, that is all oil flood. By the end of the day the dies are so hot you can't put your hand on them, but there's no smoke. They use the heavy dark sulfurized oil.

iwananew10K · May 20, 2020

this is where carbide insert tooling shines in the homeshop.
allows you to run dry.

does cost more tho.

carlherrnstein · May 20, 2020

Try using compressed airblast as the coolant.

Kevin T · May 20, 2020

iwananew10K said:
this is where carbide insert tooling shines in the homeshop.
allows you to run dry.

does cost more tho.

I have a ton of bits just no holders, maybe I could use a couple for roughing...hmmmmmm

I did the rest of the operation just now dry and it was ok. I'll touch up the cutter on a stone later and give it a good look over.

iwananew10K · May 20, 2020

do you have plain carbide....or carbide insert tools?

the geometries of the insert types cant really be sharpened very effectively.

SLK001 · May 20, 2020

Rough out the 1018 dry. Things will get hot, but you won't get any smoke. I rough out my 1018 dry and only use lube on the finishing cuts. The 1018 gets so hot (probably around 160º F) that I have to drop it into a bucket of water to be able to continue.

Kevin T · May 20, 2020

iwananew10K said:
do you have plain carbide....or carbide insert tools?

the geometries of the insert types cant really be sharpened very effectively.

I have a bunch of pre-made carbide tipped cutters...the throw away kind! I'll keep my eye open for a basic holder set for 3/8 bit size...unless one of you fine chaps has a pretty set of Armstrong or Williams T-2-R, T-2-S, T-2-L that you don't need anymore!

Kevin T · May 20, 2020

SLK001 said:
Rough out the 1018 dry. Things will get hot, but you won't get any smoke. I rough out my 1018 dry and only use lube on the finishing cuts. The 1018 gets so hot (probably around 160º F) that I have to drop it into a bucket of water to be able to continue.

I was going to take a temp reading and ask in here because yes it gets hot! These are great suggestions thanks so much. I will do these very things next operation! I think I got the tight tolerance stuff out of the way on my collet closer details, but I could have done a bit better with those tips!

The recess for the bearing was fun! I was lucky I didn't have to make a fresh cutter for that inside edge! One came with my lathe! Whew!

This shows the modified redesign of the first redesign! LOL Some holes to open up and a couple of cutoff operations. Then I need to make a wheel to put on the end.

pavt · May 20, 2020

SLK001 said:
Rough out the 1018 dry. Things will get hot, but you won't get any smoke. I rough out my 1018 dry and only use lube on the finishing cuts. The 1018 gets so hot (probably around 160º F) that I have to drop it into a bucket of water to be able to continue.

Huh, I'm gonna file that away in my "bag of tricks".... Thanks!

thermite · May 20, 2020

pavt said:
Same here, either go flood or go dry. Re Flood cooling with oil, take a look at what pipe threading machines do, that is all oil flood. By the end of the day the dies are so hot you can't put your hand on them, but there's no smoke. They use the heavy dark sulfurized oil.

Amen.

For "logistics reasons"... As-in.. coolant selection, acquisition, prep, life extension, eventual disposal/recycling AKA "Life Cycle Management"..

... being a serious-annoying ROYAL pain-in-the-ASS for a(ny) small shop where it doesn't get used all-day, every day...??

I use two. NEITHER ONE is ever quite the best choice. But each is ALWAYS "good enough", and either one beats cutting dry all to Hell and gone.

Dumb? Or Dumb like a Fox? Works for me.

Coolant:

- Houghton Ho-Cut 795-MP-RHS. Keller-Heartt carry it.
--- Not Houghton's best-seller. Per other PM members, it just happens to not go stinky hardly atall even when left idle for long periods of time. I'm good with that. VERY!

Neat Oil: .... or reasonable facsimile, thereof...

- Oatey Dark Thread Cutting oil. Yah. There's LOTS of "nicer stuff". Really. There is. But I grew UP on Sulferized stink. Feel kinda "naked" without it. So there.

There is, of course, a whole friggin' UNIVERSE of nicer stuff insofar as "neat" oils and cutting fluids. Help yerself.

But for a "smallholder"? Old Skewl dark sulfurized "JFW!"

....And is as close as yer local "Big Box" if yah run short.

2 "compromises". Only. Neither the best. But "good enough" to keep life simple.

Otherwise?

Yah could end up among the poor disadvantaged "deplorables" ...who have been forced to cut DRY ....and then rationalize that they actually LIKE it that way!

Kevin T · May 20, 2020

thermite said:
Amen.

For "logistics reasons"... As-in.. coolant selection, acquisition, prep, life extension, eventual disposal/recycling AKA "Life Cycle Management"..

... being a serious-annoying ROYAL pain-in-the-ASS for a(ny) small shop where it doesn't get used all-day, every day...??

I use two. NEITHER ONE is ever quite the best choice. But each is ALWAYS "good enough", and either one beats cutting dry all to Hell and gone.

Dumb? Or Dumb like a Fox? Works for me.

Coolant:

- Houghton Ho-Cut 795-MP-RHS. Keller-Heartt carry it.
--- Not Houghton's best-seller. Per other PM members, it just happens to not go stinky hardly atall even when left idle for long periods of time. I'm good with that. VERY!

Neat Oil: .... or reasonable facsimile, thereof...

- Oatey Dark Thread Cutting oil. Yah. There's LOTS of "nicer stuff". Really. There is. But I grew UP on Sulferized stink. Feel kinda "naked" without it. So there.

There is, of course, a whole friggin' UNIVERSE of nicer stuff insofar as "neat" oils and cutting fluids. Help yerself.

But for a "smallholder"? Old Skewl dark sulfurized "JFW!"

....And is as close as yer local "Big Box" if yah run short.

2 "compromises". Only. Neither the best. But "good enough" to keep life simple.

Otherwise?

Yah could end up among the poor disadvantaged "deplorables" ...who have been forced to cut DRY ....and then rationalize that they actually LIKE it that way!

I've done some searches for "Neat Oil" and it is not easy to nail down exactly what product that is when talking about machining. It is mentioned in South Bend HTRAL to touch up a drive belt too IIRC but....????

pavt · May 20, 2020

thermite said:
Amen.
But I grew UP on Sulferized stink. Feel kinda "naked" without it. So there.

But for a "smallholder"? Old Skewl dark sulfurized "JFW!"

....And is as close as yer local "Big Box" if yah run short.

Likewise here. At work they use the NOCO Bio-cool with water in the bandsaw. Everything else gets dark oil. BUT they can afford it by the barrel.

At home I mix the Oatey with a few pounds of de-odorized hog lard melted together.

Guaranteed to be using flood cooling if I'm knurling or threading. Knurling goes so much better when the chips are actually getting flushed out instead of crushing them back into the work.

And the lard makes threading beautiful. Even with HSS on 1018. No wonder the old-timers swore by it even in the 1800's! Course you still have to keep the HSS sharp.

thermite · May 20, 2020

pavt said:
Likewise here. At work they use the NOCO Bio-cool with water in the bandsaw. Everything else gets dark oil. BUT they can afford it by the barrel.

At home I mix the Oatey with a few pounds of de-odorized hog lard melted together.

Guaranteed to be using flood cooling if I'm knurling or threading. Knurling goes so much better when the chips are actually getting flushed out instead of crushing them back into the work.

And the lard makes threading beautiful. Even with HSS on 1018. No wonder the old-timers swore by it even in the 1800's! Course you still have to keep the HSS sharp.

No "lard oil" IN my shop. It's "food". Non-toxic, even. By itself, anyway.
Critters can LIVE on it. Humans at the head of the list. Rodents as well.
I DO have it for cooking. In the 'fridge.

What both users of it seek is that it has a VERY high smoke or flash point. But only when compared to vegetable oils (Avocado, Macadamia..).

"Mineral" oils are waaay better, yet on that score.

If I was to "cut" dark sulfur? Prolly use Mobil One.

Cost isn't a huge deal, here. I just don't use much "net" VOLUME with loss/consumption/discard of any of 'em.

Being in the bizness at my age of making experiments - or even just excuses for 'em - far, far more often than making "chips"?

Most anything is cheap enough... so long as 5 GAL pail.. or even LESS.. not 55 gal drum, minimum.

Part of that is back to the gnarly costs of DISPOSAL, of course.

More than a few times we see it "Right here, on PM" where a brother is stuck with "too many" gallons as are had to get rid off even given-away.

The less yah store, the easier to get out from under when that time cometh.

Smoke

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Aluminum

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