South Bend 13" Lathe Bearing Issues - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Umpteen you tube vids on using plastigage. Remember,, Youtube is the world's finest shop manual.

    Plastigage Basics in 2 Minutes - YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by chipss View Post
    Umpteen you tube vids on using plastigage. Remember,, Youtube is the world's finest shop manual.

    Plastigage Basics in 2 Minutes - YouTube
    Okay, I watched the video on Plasticgage, it would be a good tool to use but it's limited on this type of bearing.

    For one it's a split bearing with a 3/16" slot and a expander in the bearing slot. It is slid on the spindle

    which would be a challenge to attach the plasticgage and not damage the piece(s) after placing it on the

    shaft. I can always do a lift test and know exactly if I need to add or remove shims to get to the factory recommended settings.

    I plan on buying some plasticgage to check out my bearing cap, it should work fine for what I have in mind.

    I am not getting enough or any decent lubrication on the spindle It's not the bearing

    clearance at all. I believe the previous owner or owners made some adjustments that can't be reversed. What

    I need help with at the moment is understanding the entire oiling process. I have a few questions

    1) The purpose of the groove in the center of the bronze bearing that the capillary spring loaded oiler
    extends through?

    2) Does oil spread out and flow to the outer edge of the bearing at the bottom or after it hits the felt
    in the expander?

    3) Does the felt in the expander act like a defuser spreading the oil to the outer edges?

    4) What would cause the oil not to flow around the spindle journal evenly with everything set perfectly as
    it should be?


    5) If the bearing cap is not parallel with the bronze bearing and spindle could this cause heating and how
    would I discover it and correct it?

    6) Any manuals written on the lubrication procedure in detail of how it works?

    Thanks

  4. #23
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    It's really quite simple: the spring-loaded felt in the bottom wicks oil up to the shaft; the shaft rotates and drags the oils up the center groove to the gap at the top of the bearing; the felt at the top distributes it evenly; then the oil eventually works its way to the edge where it is flung into the V-groove on the edge of the bearing cap where it runs back into the sump.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GenePoole View Post
    It's really quite simple: the spring-loaded felt in the bottom wicks oil up to the shaft; the shaft rotates and drags the oils up the center groove to the gap at the top of the bearing; the felt at the top distributes it evenly; then the oil eventually works its way to the edge where it is flung into the V-groove on the edge of the bearing cap where it runs back into the sump.
    I guess I made it too complicated, I understand what you are saying. What I don't understand is once the oil

    from the capillary spring loaded oiler rides against the spindle surface does it let some of the oil spread

    out of the groove in the bearing while traveling to the top where the expander is and the felt diffuser is

    located or does the oil traveling to the top from the oiler spread out to the edges when it hits the felt

    from the back side? Doesn't it seem odd that no matter how tight or lose the front bearing is set it still

    works great and never over heats? This is what I have concluded, I have a lubrication issue with the

    rear bronze bearing. I took the spindle out and put the bronze bearing with the expander back in the

    headstock. I added .018 shims rear inboard and .017 rear outboard with a .002 half shim under the front

    outboard corner. Why did I do that?? With the .002 half shim it measured within 1/10000 at the rear at both

    points 11 to 5 and 8 to 2, 1.8754 and 1.8753. The front at the same points measured 1.8759 and 1.8759. This

    is closest I have gotten trying to be parallel with the spindle journal surface. When I did the lift test

    the other night I did it every 45*, 2 points read .002 and 2 points read .003. I can't afford to take my

    lathe any where to measure it out with better equipment. I forgot to mention that when I put the spindle

    back in with the shims as I described including the .002 half shim I snugged the Allen Head Cap Screws and

    expander screws it ran in the low speed and middle speed without locking up. I'm going to take it all apart

    and flush it out completely again, repeating the process several times. I ordered new oilers even though I

    don't have 5 hours on the new ones installed. Maybe video when I put it back together so you can see the

    steps are correct. I am also going to use some plasticgage on the bearing sitting in the headstock without

    the spindle but with the expander and shims and measure if there is any place that is not up tight against

    the headstock casting. Here are some pictures on the original oilers and the 3 spacers used on the front

    bearing cap. Thanks for all the good suggestions. Picture of original bearing.

    20200314_153241.jpg20200730_142239.jpg20200314_141658.jpg20200314_141642.jpg

    I want to really clean the oil reservoirs out, what's a good product or combined products to use for

    cleaning? Kerosene, Mineral Spirits, Simple Green, Purple Strength, Carburetor Cleaner in the can? I think

    if trash has been in there for 60 years like what I saw on the original oilers then it needs a deep

    cleaning and not just a flushing like I did in the beginning.
    Last edited by Greenlee52; 04-27-2021 at 07:21 PM.

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    I'm running the lathe in the slowest speed. My 4 jaw has some tight spots when turning the chuck key. I'm

    going to polish the area out a little for better action since I don't own a 3 jaw scrolling chuck.

    I'm thinking about removing the head stock to have better advantage of position to flush/clean out the oil

    inside the reservoirs.

    Don't know what to use but I sure I can search the forum and find others doing the same thing. I've got to

    stay focused on what I am doing, like I said prior, health issues are getting worse. I hope I have not

    insulted anyone or angered anyone. PM Forum is a great source of answers for South Bend issues. Many of

    which don't make any sense. Being able to express problems I'm having with my lathe helps me think through

    the next steps. Thanks for all the advice and suggestions, I'll update as I move forward working on this

    13" lathe. One more question before I go, my motor is not original, it's a 3 phase 3 Horse Power. It turns

    at 1725 RPMs, is this the correct motor RPMs for a South Bend 13" x 72" lathe? Thanks

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    So here’s the low down on my South Bend 13” Lathe. This is way more than a simple adjustment of the rear bearing. I know I am listed as a Plastic, a newbie with a limited machine shop background. I am mechanical when working on and around equipment. Since I discovered my 13” SB needed work it has been a year. I have spent my time working on it in vain.
    I now have 2 spindles, 2 large bearings and expanders, 3 rear bearings and expanders and a pile of shims. My line of thinking is this, when South Bend put a lathe together and set all the bearing clearances I bet not one owner had to back off on the Allen Head Cap Screws or expanders so it would run in 2nd or 3rd speed like mine with a 3-Step Pulley System.
    As many times that I have put in or taken out my spindle the larger front bearing in a joy to adjust. I have done the lift test when it’s showing 0.0005 as the result and it never gets hot. It is not a problem at all to set it to .001 and let it go. No combination of the rear bearing solves anything.
    I have even filed down the VEE edge of one of my expanders with zero results.
    The numbers on the front stay at .001 and I have walked the rear back down by a 0.001 at a time stopping at 0.002 to 0.003 and it will not spin. This is starting with 0.019 on both sides in the front and 0.020 at the rear. This is beyond normal adjustments.
    I believe that someone milled a small pass on the rear bearing cap on the inboard side from bottom to top. What I’m asking is to please work with me a minute. Is the time to pull out the plastic gage laying it across the top of the bronze on each side to the expander to look at the reading after I pull it down with the Allen head bolts and expander screws?
    What about alignment from the rear to the front? It seems odd that the spindle can be installed with only the large front bearing set and it spins pretty easy but when you slide on the rear bearing even without the bearing cap on and it won’t spin at all.
    I have a good friend who owns 2 SB lathes and he made a special trip to my place to look at my lathe. Well 5 hours later once again the mighty 13” from parts unknown beat us again.
    I had already been through everything he tried many times over. He said nothing makes sense on this rear bearing. I understand that this is getting old and nobody wants to even see me ask a question because it’s just like Ted P. said in response to a question I emailed him on the rear bearing. “Paul, what are you doing wrong” but that’s the problem, I’m not doing anything wrong.
    When I read a statement that says all I have to do is back my Allen head screws off a little, (not a good idea with a tight expander), and it’s only going to back off a little before you went past the point of no return.
    The same is said about backing the expanders off. Why should anyone have to do this so they can operate at a higher speed??????
    Did South Bend intend for you to figure it out and just bump it back and forth or did they intend for their lathes to run correctly the way they left the factory?????
    Has anyone converted the rear bearing to a linear bearing a roller or any kind bearing other than a split bronze bearing? If this was your lathe and you already went down every avenue trying to adjust it with no success what would you do next?
    Where would you focus your attention to correct or investigate the next step? What other tools for measuring or indicators would you pull out????
    I’ll try anything out of the box to get it running, please give it some thought and respond. Thanks again.

    I forgot to mention that the rear bearing is not getting enough lubrication. Everything has been cleaned and flushed, brand new capillary oilers. I can run it on low speed for a few minutes with the Allen Head Screws barely snug and the expander snug but eventually it will still heat up. So it doesn't matter how you adjust to get the correct clearance for the rear bearing. You can file the VEE off the expander, cut 1/8" off the felt or tighten it all according to SB including the locknut which has been adjusted according to SB.

    I don't think the bearing cap and the headstock are concentric for what ever reason. There is not a true clearance or 0.0007 to 0.001 or even 0.0015 surrounding the spindle journal to lubricate evenly. This is what I would like to confirm possibly using the plastic gage between the outer bearing wall and the headstock and bearing cap interior walls. For the life of me I can't sell this lathe to anyone without being in good running condition.
    Last edited by Greenlee52; 05-11-2021 at 10:38 AM.

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    You have changed everything except the headstock casting.

    Your theory is: bearing seats on the large, and small bearing, are not aligned for some reason. Leave alone how that would have happened.
    How does on test this theory?

    Remove small bearing shell, install spindle with only the larger, front shell in place. Attempt to measure the clearance between
    the smaller jounal on the spindle, and the interior of the bearing seat. The spindle will of course sag some, but if the problem
    is large you might see it.

    At least one of the shells in the pictures above were installed incorrectly in the past (bearing expander had been extracted through the
    shell (expander screws not removed before removing the cap), and the previous owner had put the cap back in place and dimpled
    the top of the shell. Then tried to repair the issue somehow.

    If the expander is not doing its job (one expander did seem badly damaged) the the shell will not conform fully to the bore inside the
    casting when the cap is put on and the expander screws tightened. This will cause a badly dragging bearing. Possibly you have
    already chased that down, if so I apologize for bringing it up .

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    You have changed everything except the headstock casting.

    Your theory is: bearing seats on the large, and small bearing, are not aligned for some reason. Leave alone how that would have happened.
    How does on test this theory?

    Remove small bearing shell, install spindle with only the larger, front shell in place. Attempt to measure the clearance between
    the smaller jounal on the spindle, and the interior of the bearing seat. The spindle will of course sag some, but if the problem
    is large you might see it.

    At least one of the shells in the pictures above were installed incorrectly in the past (bearing expander had been extracted through the
    shell (expander screws not removed before removing the cap), and the previous owner had put the cap back in place and dimpled
    the top of the shell. Then tried to repair the issue somehow.

    If the expander is not doing its job (one expander did seem badly damaged) the the shell will not conform fully to the bore inside the
    casting when the cap is put on and the expander screws tightened. This will cause a badly dragging bearing. Possibly you have
    already chased that down, if so I apologize for bringing it up .
    Yes Sir, I have changed everything except the Headstock. This is the 2nd spindle now that I am using. It is better than the original.

    I have put the spindle in the headstock with only the front larger bearing holding it in place. I did not think to measure around the casting and bearing cap. The spindle would spin freely, even the first original spindle would spin freely in the same manor.

    I honestly believe that the previous machinist who owned this lathe took a cleanup pass on the inboard side of the bearing cap. I can see the milling line in the cap.

    I have put the bearing cap on by itself tightened it down and then measure the rear bore and the front bore and have as much as .007 difference on the lowest measurement.

    I put the bearing and expander back in the cap and it showed once again a different measurement on the bores front and back. I'm considering putting putting a shim between the bearing and the casting shell to see if I can close it up to being round on the front bore and back bore and improve the bores to have the same measurement. With this much difference front and back how can the oil be evenly disbursed around the journal with a clearance of 0.0007 to 0.001?

    I got rid of the rear bearing after I removed the caps. I have 1 new bearing and 2 used bearings all 3 in new condition with 3 expanders. I have easily removed and installed over 100 times and I know that I am doing everything correctly.

    I honestly hope with the advice you gave me that I will see something going on that explains this issue. I am very appreciative of any suggestions since this seems to be a stand alone deal.

    I am laid up right now and can't get out to the garage. I hope in a couple more days of bedrest I can get up and pass the results of what I find back to you. God Bless you for responding.

    One more thing, the front bearings go in place on either spindle and adjust out perfect every time and never heat up. I plan on removing the bull gear on the original spindle so I can see what kind of shape it is in.

    I can then salvage parts that are in good shape to resell or have as extra with the lathe.

    I needed to add that when I put the spindle back in without the rear bearing I wasn't thinking of something being out with the headstock and bearing cap. Now that you mentioned looking at the distance around the spindle understanding there could be a little sag with the spindle end.

    Help me with this, should the bore dimensions be the same from the rear bore to the front. I didn't measure the front since I didn't have any issues with it but it might be a good thing to do just to verify what I am looking at.

    Suppose the rear cap was slightly skinned with a mill, I would have to determine the thickness of a shim that would cover the area where any metal was taken out. Nothing on the headstock but depending how true it was milled on the cap would determine which end or both ends to put shims in place.
    Last edited by Greenlee52; 05-13-2021 at 02:01 PM.

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    I think you are heading down the right path with your observation that the rear cap was milled. The bores of the front and rear bearings must be concentric. If a cap was milled, it would shift the axis of the that bore away from concentric.

    You might consider measuring the concentricity of the rear cap bore to front cap bore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobsYourUncl View Post
    I think you are heading down the right path with your observation that the rear cap was milled. The bores of the front and rear bearings must be concentric. If a cap was milled, it would shift the axis of the that bore away from concentric.
    You might consider measuring the concentricity of the rear cap bore to front cap bore.
    Given that the headstock is the only part not changed, it's a good place to look. If the rear bearing *cap* were modified, that means metal was removed which would put
    the rear shell at a higher elevation than the front one. One way to see if this is going on, would be to attempt to measure the distances all around, between the small journal on the
    spindle, and the internal surface of the bearing cap, with the the rear bearing removed from the headstock, but the front bearing in place and shimmed very close.

    The failure for this measurement of course is the spindle will want to sag down and make the clearances measured tight on the bottom and loose on the top. But it would
    be a start. If the previous owner had milled off 0.050 inch then it would show up probably.

  12. #31
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    Can you post more photos of the good bearing, expander and cap.
    I read through most of the thread and can't see where you fit the bearing sleeve to the oil tube off of the spindle.
    It's important that the sleeve tube hole will fit over the tube and has full contact with the headstock journal.
    It also must not protrude thru the bearing sleeve or rubbing on the spindle journal may occur.
    If the oil tube is below the bearing sleeve, the sleeve can rotate out of plane, so this acts as a location pin.
    Ream the tube opening in the sleeve if needed to seat freely on the casting journal.
    If the tube has been pressed down into the oiling reservoir by misassemble, make a hook tool(long machine screw with a head that will slip under the side of the tube) to pull it up and then adjust tube height to be below the inner bearing surface.
    After you have confirmed that you have the bearing stationary and flat on the lower casting journal, with the spindle out and the sleeve bearing siting in the lower journal with the expander in it, measure your shims or go back to the ones you know will give you even clearance, but before bolting on the caps, make sure the cap will fit over the expander and everything still is free moving. With the shims in place start to tighten the caps without the expander screws in, and watch and or start measuring the clearance around the shell.
    You should be able to see it pretty well and look for any anomalies that could cause the shell not to pull up and expand against the now assembled journal. You should also now be able to use the expander screws to check if it really will expand correctly, after finding no problems yet. After snugging the expanders you should be able to see if the shell has gaps or is skewed in the journal cap or out of plane. This might help you fit the cap if required. You can start taking measurements with a bore gauge or bore mic at this point for concentric problems in the sleeve also. You should be able to check you spindle journal and sleeve ID and read your oil film clearance difference, albeit a very small amount, add some shims and see it the difference goes up like it should. I know you know the process by doing it so many times, this is just a different way to visualize what it should be doing correctly and see if anything interferes with that.
    Hope this might help,
    Steve

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    Watch for something strange, like the bearing expander may not be pulling up far enough to make the shell seat against the journal, does it need the top filed so it can pull up tight.
    Does the expander protrude past the shell to far and put too much pressure on the felt oiler?
    Anything that would effect the rotation of the spindle.
    My first thought would be to get the spindle turning with no obstructions and know the expander will seat the bearing sleeve against the journal with enough clearance, even to the sloppy side of say .005 and has oil wicking from the reservoir.
    If you can't seat the sleeve bearing and measure more than a few thousands of the oil film clearance, work backwards, worst case if you have good movement by adding shims, and still cant get the clearance, hone the sleeve bearing, but I would make sure the sleeve is actually not skewing when under bearing torque first, and recheck everything before doing that.

    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by BobsYourUncl View Post
    I think you are heading down the right path with your observation that the rear cap was milled. The bores of the front and rear bearings must be concentric. If a cap was milled, it would shift the axis of the that bore away from concentric.

    You might consider measuring the concentricity of the rear cap bore to front cap bore.
    I agree, as soon as I can get back in the garage I'm going to compare front and rear and post the finding here to help clear this up and help me get it repaired. I'll try and take a picture of the inside of the rear bearing cap to see the mill mark. I honestly believe this is what threw me and everybody else off but PM has given me other options and I appreciate it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by swells View Post
    Can you post more photos of the good bearing, expander and cap.
    I read through most of the thread and can't see where you fit the bearing sleeve to the oil tube off of the spindle.
    It's important that the sleeve tube hole will fit over the tube and has full contact with the headstock journal.
    It also must not protrude thru the bearing sleeve or rubbing on the spindle journal may occur.
    If the oil tube is below the bearing sleeve, the sleeve can rotate out of plane, so this acts as a location pin.
    Ream the tube opening in the sleeve if needed to seat freely on the casting journal.
    If the tube has been pressed down into the oiling reservoir by misassemble, make a hook tool(long machine screw with a head that will slip under the side of the tube) to pull it up and then adjust tube height to be below the inner bearing surface.
    After you have confirmed that you have the bearing stationary and flat on the lower casting journal, with the spindle out and the sleeve bearing siting in the lower journal with the expander in it, measure your shims or go back to the ones you know will give you even clearance, but before bolting on the caps, make sure the cap will fit over the expander and everything still is free moving. With the shims in place start to tighten the caps without the expander screws in, and watch and or start measuring the clearance around the shell.
    You should be able to see it pretty well and look for any anomalies that could cause the shell not to pull up and expand against the now assembled journal. You should also now be able to use the expander screws to check if it really will expand correctly, after finding no problems yet. After snugging the expanders you should be able to see if the shell has gaps or is skewed in the journal cap or out of plane. This might help you fit the cap if required. You can start taking measurements with a bore gauge or bore mic at this point for concentric problems in the sleeve also. You should be able to check you spindle journal and sleeve ID and read your oil film clearance difference, albeit a very small amount, add some shims and see it the difference goes up like it should. I know you know the process by doing it so many times, this is just a different way to visualize what it should be doing correctly and see if anything interferes with that.
    Hope this might help,
    Steve
    Steve I would be happy to post more pictures of the capillary oiler tube since the original was pounded flush with the casting hole. I used an easy-out tool to pull the old tube. It was not tight at all. The easy-out tool did not dig into the tube much at all so just a little sanding with a round dowel and sand paper made it look new. I had to drill an new hole in the new tube which I bought from Ted P. and use a small punch to put a dimple on the opposite side to stay in the tube bore. I have already gone through the steps you mentioned on the bronze bearing and expander and both seemed to operate correctly. I did not measure the movement because I didn't have any tools that would work. I bought used Starrett snap gauge a couple of weeks ago and I want to see if I can get accurate numbers when I go through the process again. I'll post the results, you all might have some more suggestions. I appreciate the response, this has been a headache for sure.

    Here's 2 pictures showing the mill mark, I'll get some better ones once I get the cap back off.20210421_150920.jpg20210421_150945.jpg
    I don't know why the photos turned or how to correct it.

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    There a lot to read here.

    I rebuilt my SB16 and it has the same type of bearings.

    The using homemade shims in the tops of the expanders will cause the bearings to get TIGHTER (tighter tolerance) .

    Some one added shims to tighten up a worn/loose bearing

    If you remove the homemade shims then your bearing will expand and have a loose tolerance.

    Make sure the inboard and outboard factory SB shims are within .0005 - .001 of each other, the shim thickness on the right bearing vs left doesn’t matter in relation to each other, only the inboard and outboard matter.

    Yes your top felt on the expander is a “wiper” and it pushes the oil to the gutters.

    Southbound Lists a process for adjusting the oil flow rate using THE TOP FELT on the expander.

    The thicker the felt the more oil wiped away and by capillary effect the more oil will get picked up off the capillary wick in the bottom.

    If (for example) you have no felt on the top then the “oil logged” bearing will not physically pick up additional oil from the bottom capillary wick.

    This will decrease heat removal (causing heat to build up) and also prevent debris from escaping the bearing

    And the contrary would be a top felt too tight will wipe away so much oil it floods the gutters and leaks out the side, sb says to file the expander hump a little at a time and test until the oil no longer overflows (leaks) from the gutters.

    Your spindle is locking up due to heat expansion.

    Your clearance is to tight. Your measurements are inaccurate and the oil clearance is too tight.

    Sounds like the bearings wore out so bad all the factory shims were removed but couldn’t get the bearing tight enough.

    So they shimmed the expander DOWN to allow the bearing shell to clamp closed tighter (bringing the spindle into tight tolerance, may even have milled the flats on the bearing caps and then added factory shims to bring the bearing cap back up.


    I would remove the homemade shims altogether and then remove all the factory shims (HANDTIGHTEN the bearing cap bolts for this test as you can crush the bearing shells) and test the spindle play, afterwards if you have any play and/or can spin the spindle by hand then your bearing is technically shot.

    If the spindle is locked up that’s a good sign, now with the expander shims removed, add back the factory shims until you free up the spindle, snug down the cap bolts And check play.

    Get your rear bearing around .0015 - .002 and test run it

    And you need to Absolutely make sure your measurements of the spindle play are CORRECT!

    iirc it’s a 60 or 80Lbs lift with a specific length very Rigid bar.

    Just drain and fill the Reservoirs, the capillary wicks will never allow debris to climb back into the bearings so don’t worry, now bad oil will Climb.

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    Two things Ive seen throw out lathe alignments are being in a housefire,and having heavy weights on the machine for long periods.....as for instance one I saw with a truck gearbox on the bed.....The owner said "Its cast iron...cant bend"..actually cast iron can bend and take a permanent set.

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  21. #37
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    Lets review:
    Your bearing shell and expander are set with the F forward.
    Your wiper wick is an 1/8" x 1/4" piece of F5 felt.
    You have trimmed the wick an 1/8-inch and filed a 1/32-inch off the expander V.
    The wick is not forced into the spindle, you can check this with the shell on the spindle out of the lathe.
    It should slide in fairly easy with the shell. The wick must not "shear" the oil film off as the spindle turns.
    Older box bearing design shells that had wick in the top or bottom were tapered at the wick areas by scraping.
    In south Bend's Capillary Design, if the wick is to tight and shears the oil film,
    the capillary action will stop as it pools behind the wick, then over heating occurs.
    This can sometimes be seen as the rear oil cup oil level not dropping as compared to the front,
    or the cups just not suppling enough oil and levels not dropping over time.
    The little oil breather hole in the top of the casting journal that runs at an angle down and out the front of the casting is open.
    You have proofed that your shell will expand greater than the spindle size.
    You have blued your spindle and rotated in 45 degree movements back and forth, then inspected you shell for concentric contact points.
    I'll stop there and please post photos as you inspect so we can follow closely your process for obtaining or checking the clearances.

    Steve

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  23. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by swells View Post
    Can you post more photos of the good bearing, expander and cap.
    I read through most of the thread and can't see where you fit the bearing sleeve to the oil tube off of the spindle.
    It's important that the sleeve tube hole will fit over the tube and has full contact with the headstock journal.
    It also must not protrude thru the bearing sleeve or rubbing on the spindle journal may occur.
    If the oil tube is below the bearing sleeve, the sleeve can rotate out of plane, so this acts as a location pin.
    Ream the tube opening in the sleeve if needed to seat freely on the casting journal.
    If the tube has been pressed down into the oiling reservoir by misassemble, make a hook tool(long machine screw with a head that will slip under the side of the tube) to pull it up and then adjust tube height to be below the inner bearing surface.
    After you have confirmed that you have the bearing stationary and flat on the lower casting journal, with the spindle out and the sleeve bearing siting in the lower journal with the expander in it, measure your shims or go back to the ones you know will give you even clearance, but before bolting on the caps, make sure the cap will fit over the expander and everything still is free moving. With the shims in place start to tighten the caps without the expander screws in, and watch and or start measuring the clearance around the shell.
    You should be able to see it pretty well and look for any anomalies that could cause the shell not to pull up and expand against the now assembled journal. You should also now be able to use the expander screws to check if it really will expand correctly, after finding no problems yet. After snugging the expanders you should be able to see if the shell has gaps or is skewed in the journal cap or out of plane. This might help you fit the cap if required. You can start taking measurements with a bore gauge or bore mic at this point for concentric problems in the sleeve also. You should be able to check you spindle journal and sleeve ID and read your oil film clearance difference, albeit a very small amount, add some shims and see it the difference goes up like it should. I know you know the process by doing it so many times, this is just a different way to visualize what it should be doing correctly and see if anything interferes with that.
    Hope this might help,
    Steve
    Like an idiot I went out to my garage to get a few things done. I have a lot to share since all of you have put a different light on what might be the problem. I need to order a scale from eBay for the 50# to 75# lift. I am no longer able physically to perform this and there is no doubt in my mind that my measurements are not correct as mentioned. I am also at a standstill trying to measure the bores with a snap gauge but that's all I have other than a Starrett spring type inside caliber. I need to post these pictures and then I will come back and go through the threads from top to bottom, This is all I can do right now.newshimsimade2org.jpgI cut these shims by hand, the top and bottom are from the laminated shim pack sold on eBay. This is another pile of shims that I cut again by hand.
    newhandmadeshims.jpg

    This next bunch of pictures shows the original and new, I tried to label some to make it easier.
    20210313_120635.jpgI used this easy out to remove my capillary oiler tube. It barely bit in and it pulled out as I turned it. A little file and sandpaper and it looked as good as new but I installed a new tube since this original tube was turned and drilled in the wrong position

    20210515_144853.jpg20210515_145253.jpg
    This the the front bearing and it is off another running lathe, much better than what I had. I never used the 3 metal shims that were under the bearing cap with the original spindle.

    I'll post 5 more pictures per post.

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    Next set of 5 pictures

    20210515_150036.jpg20210515_150055.jpg20210515_150322.jpg20210515_150334.jpg20210515_150637.jpg

    This capillary oilers in the headstock front and rear and the front bearing and expander

    Can these pictures be turned the correct way for viewing? Is there a way to correct it.
    Last edited by Greenlee52; 05-16-2021 at 03:46 PM. Reason: 1 picture short

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    5 more pictures

    20210515_150153.jpg20210515_150218.jpg20210515_150302.jpg20210515_150536.jpg20210515_150536.jpg

    This is the new bearing that I am using currently. As I mentioned prior, I have 3 rear bearings all in new condition and 3 expanders of which one was filed across the VEE. I guess I should braze it back up and start over removing a small amount of metal at a time to see if it improves the oil flow


    I don't know what I am doing wrong but after getting the pictures in I broke things down to reply to the great comments. Autosave popped up several times so I went to save it all and now I'm not logged in and I lost it all. Do I need to login periodically or if it's long write it in Word and copy and paste?

    I'll reply again tomorrow
    Last edited by Greenlee52; 05-16-2021 at 08:49 PM. Reason: Lost replies

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