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  1. #81
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    Default Bearing Clearance setting

    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    Be it any kind of engine, transmission, gear box or whatever, Moving parts need oil clearance. On this type of thing I'm looking for .001" to .0015". That's me personally, others may vary. But I want to see that on an up and down check on each bearing journal, as well as side thrust, moving the whole spindle back and forth.

    You may go a little tighter or looser than .001"-.0015", but keep in mind there is no oil pump, no oil pressure to force oil, so I err toward loose vs being tight. As you do checks, adjust shims, oil and roll spindle by hand. Ask yourself if its dragging or spinning nice.

    A magnet base dial indicator set up can check all that. Handy for getting work at zero too. Nothing too fancy, a .001 increment indicator, with a travel of a 1/2" or 1".

    Place indicator pointer at 12 oclock on chuck/spindle. Get a prybar and apply pressure at 6 oclock somewhere, not your whole body weight, but put maybe 50-75 lbs into it. Get your reading. Do to both bearing caps.

    Then set thrust. Stick pointer of dial indicator straight at face of chuck/spindle. Use prybar or screw driver to nudge spindle back and forth.
    The bearing clearance between the spindle and bearing is .0007 per inch of diameter of the spindle. If the spindle is 2.000 the bearing clearance should be .0014. "Plastic Gage" is available at any auto supply store. Plastic Gage will make it easy to adjust the bearing clearance and be sure of your assembly done properly.

    Roger

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    Quote Originally Posted by rogertoolmaker View Post
    The bearing clearance between the spindle and bearing is .0007 per inch of diameter of the spindle. If the spindle is 2.000 the bearing clearance should be .0014. "Plastic Gage" is available at any auto supply store. Plastic Gage will make it easy to adjust the bearing clearance and be sure of your assembly done properly.

    Roger
    My SB16 front bearing is at .0007 with no issues using a jeweled Starett .0001 indicator with .008 travel.

    That indicator is a finicky girl and was dead accurate, I bought it new.

    She’s seen some battles with a few tools since so might not be as accurate as she once was

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    Quote Originally Posted by rogertoolmaker View Post
    The bearing clearance between the spindle and bearing is .0007 per inch of diameter of the spindle. If the spindle is 2.000 the bearing clearance should be .0014. "Plastic Gage" is available at any auto supply store. Plastic Gage will make it easy to adjust the bearing clearance and be sure of your assembly done properly.

    Roger
    I am very ok with a number of .0014". But I don't agree with your reasoning on .0007" per 1" of shaft OD. I do a bunch of other stuff too, I see shaft sizes could be 3 or 4" but oil clearance spec is always around .001"

    If you read between the lines of the factory instructions, the spec is .0007" to .001", and not based on shaft OD:

    57.jpg

    I copied that from a more detailed copy here:

    New to me southbend 16x87 Need some help

    Cheap props , but Steve Wells of the South Bend Data Base also called the spec here:
    Bearing Adjustment

    My personal recommendation of going slightly more than .001" has to do with all these machines being 50 or more years old, and the bores not as straight as when new. Going slightly more than .001" buys a little forgiveness there.

    Now we all have our own ways of doing things, and things we are comfortable with. More than one way to skin a cat and all. . . But I personally don't like plastic gage. First I'm pretty adept at using dial indicators and mics, I already own those and can read them, so I don't need to buy plastic gage. I was guessing if a guy owns a lathe, he probably has a dial indicator too .

    But my biggest reason against plastic gage is it sticks when smashing down on checks. And to get it off you scratch the bearing.

    Maybe not a problem with a straight copper bearing, and I'd say not a problem on cast iron bearings. But most bearings I deal with have that gray coating over copper, and by the time you get the plastic gage off, you scratched the bearing all up. Why bother when I can stick an indicator on it and take a reading straight away ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    I figured you were being funny and trolling me. I'm not that blind. I just need the right glasses.

    Attachment 323151

    You don't need to double space every sentence. Just some paragraphs, with maybe a space between paragraphs. I was trying to read posts #1 and #8, and re-reading to be sure I understood, and trying to find my place in the middle was crushing my head.

    I was, I enjoy speaking with you on the Forum, I can see why all the women in cut off shorts want to work in your shop. It does make it easier to

    read to me as well. Great photo attached

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    I agree with Tex here, I seen no connection on oil clearance to shaft size in this situation.

    I’m sure there is a connection but in these lathes it doesn’t seem to matter.

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    I'm slowly getting there, ready to test my method of lift and bearing clearance. I have a 24"x1-1/8" bar with a mark at 12" and the rigging is sitting

    2-1/2" from the end of the bar. The scale is 100# plus. I removed the bolt for the inside square tubing, (Boom out and Boom in) took it completely

    out then inserted the bolt back in. Now the extension boom stops at the last hole, can't go past it. I made a couple of lifts but the indicators all

    seem to show a different reading. I'll have to check each one out and use the one that returns to zero and is consistent when repeated. If this

    doesn't square away all the opinions and which method works best then I don't know what to tell you. What I am doing is going by the ILions

    manual. I have a picture of the setup for viewing.


    20210621_124144.jpg20210621_154103.jpg


    Nothing I could do to turn it correctly, sorry. I can hold it at 80# lift for 20 seconds or longer as suggested. The amount of lift as

    indicated by the dial indicator remains the same except it varies between the 3 indicators I have. I guess this is where paying

    for a quality indicator makes a difference. I'm going out to make a few lifts now to compare results. I think I paid $26.99 for

    the scale and close to $80.00 for the bar. I could have bought a good test indicator but if this is the way to get the lathe

    back running, so be it.

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    Put your mag base on top of the bearing cap, not on the saddle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrewblob View Post
    Put your mag base on top of the bearing cap, not on the saddle
    Homebrew, it shows the compound in the ILions booklet and in the South Bend 4 page pamphlet on adjusting bearing clearance. I will find a better

    location that is solid and can't move. Thanks for looking.

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    I can't fault you for using the scale, especially if you're reading from a manual. Just my impression that you're over thinking it a bit. But to be fair I do a lot of similar checks in my job and feel pretty comfortable feeling the clunk of thrust and checking clearances with pry bars and indicators.

    On indicator mounting, in general mounting on compound or rest is fine. But the extra length of extension rods can add some inaccuracies. It may not be perceptible, but you'll get minor flex, particularly at the joints. The longer the extensions, they greater the movement, and less consistent readings.

    Mounting on the cap could give you nice short length on extension rods. But catch 22 is mag base won't sit flat.

    You may know already, not sure. But you are using a plunger type dial indicator. Which is fine in my personal opinion. And I personally use them for pretty much everything external.

    Test indicators are typically lever type:

    66.jpg

    The Gods of Metrology may frown upon me, but I am more apt to use these for internal readings, like a spindle bore. They can be used external also. And I believe the difference by definition is test indicators check consistency, while dial indicators check comparative readings. Regardless, for practical purposes a decent dial indicator is fine for what you are doing.

    A cheap, decent check of your current indicators. Mount, and indicate off a flat surface and set to zero. Get a set of feeler blades. Check indicator readings with feeler blades .002, .005, .010, .015, and .020" slipping under contact point, and out again. Then choose your most consistent indicator that reads the same as feeler gauges, and returns to zero with it out.

    If you are using a .0001" indicator, you will feel more inconstant than with a .001" indicator. All sorts of minor variances will affect the reading and make you feel whacked. Need to be real clean and true, and nice smooth surfaces for .0001" to be consistent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenlee52 View Post
    I'm slowly getting there, ready to test my method of lift and bearing clearance. I have a 24"x1-1/8" bar with a mark at 12" and the rigging is sitting

    2-1/2" from the end of the bar. The scale is 100# plus.
    Here ya' go.

    test.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    I can't fault you for using the scale, especially if you're reading from a manual. Just my impression that you're over thinking it a bit. But to be fair I do a lot of similar checks in my job and feel pretty comfortable feeling the clunk of thrust and checking clearances with pry bars and indicators.

    On indicator mounting, in general mounting on compound or rest is fine. But the extra length of extension rods can add some inaccuracies. It may not be perceptible, but you'll get minor flex, particularly at the joints. The longer the extensions, they greater the movement, and less consistent readings.

    Mounting on the cap could give you nice short length on extension rods. But catch 22 is mag base won't sit flat.

    You may know already, not sure. But you are using a plunger type dial indicator. Which is fine in my personal opinion. And I personally use them for pretty much everything external.

    Test indicators are typically lever type:

    66.jpg

    The Gods of Metrology may frown upon me, but I am more apt to use these for internal readings, like a spindle bore. They can be used external also. And I believe the difference by definition is test indicators check consistency, while dial indicators check comparative readings. Regardless, for practical purposes a decent dial indicator is fine for what you are doing.

    A cheap, decent check of your current indicators. Mount, and indicate off a flat surface and set to zero. Get a set of feeler blades. Check indicator readings with feeler blades .002, .005, .010, .015, and .020" slipping under contact point, and out again. Then choose your most consistent indicator that reads the same as feeler gauges, and returns to zero with it out.

    If you are using a .0001" indicator, you will feel more inconstant than with a .001" indicator. All sorts of minor variances will affect the reading and make you feel whacked. Need to be real clean and true, and nice smooth surfaces for .0001" to be consistent.
    A lot of good advice here. No one told me to use a scale and in the ILion Booklet they don't tell you to use a scale but I have seen suggestions on

    holding a bathroom scale under the rod and pickup to 75 or 80 pounds holding it and reading the indicator. This is all my method on how I would

    use a scale to take the load off me and be absolutely accurate in the process.

    I appreciate the instructions on testing a dial indicator using feeler gauges to see which one is the most accurate, I didn't have a clue on how to do

    this. Thanks. I took a couple of readings using different indicators and none were the same so I can get started on testing them as you mentioned.

    My test indicator is in .0005 and so is the plunger type indicator but both indicators have a time returning to zero. This is what I'll do first, I need good readings Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by mcload View Post
    Here ya' go.

    test.jpg

    Thanks so much, it certainly looks better turned the right way. I have tried everything even turning the pictures ahead of time but they never stay upright as they should. With the amount of members and a World Wide Audience I would think that PM would do what ever it could to make sure pictures could be edited to avoid the embarrassment of saying we can't correct this either. Just my opinion and thanks again for turning mine around.


    Let me ask this on the shim packs I am using, I am being very careful to remove only 1 at a time but some will tear because it is glued hard to the next shim. Is there a method of removing them one at a time like heating them up in hot water or something?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenlee52 View Post
    Thanks so much, it certainly looks better turned the right way. I have tried everything even turning the pictures ahead of time but they never stay upright as they should. With the amount of members and a World Wide Audience I would think that PM would do what ever it could to make sure pictures could be edited to avoid the embarrassment of saying we can't correct this either. Just my opinion and thanks again for turning mine around.
    We can edit and post the pictures in the correct orientation as shown here, it’s just not a big deal nor embarrassing for us who’ve been here for awhile.

    It just happens.

    I used the bearing cap for my mounting location, it’s takes a little trial and error to get it mounted solid.

    I mounted my base at roughly a 45° angle on the cap.

    Tex is right I’m sure, your most likely getting movement in your indicator stand.

    If it’s a cheap stand then crank the hell out of the locking handles and if possible remove the “fine adjustment” from the equation.

    You don’t need to zero on the number 0. You can zero on any number and test for repeatability.

    In my experience When you twist the lens of the dial indicator to 0 you’ll get movement that will undermine your attempts.

    I bought a NOGA fine adjust stand for around 175$

    But here’s a NOGA stand without the base that I think is a good deal
    NOGA Indicator Holder, Bases, and Stands, Base Type Arm Only, Arm Type Articulating - 56LA99'|'NF60103 - Grainger

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    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrewblob View Post
    We can edit and post the pictures in the correct orientation as shown here, it’s just not a big deal nor embarrassing for us who’ve been here for awhile.

    It just happens.

    I used the bearing cap for my mounting location, it’s takes a little trial and error to get it mounted solid.

    I mounted my base at roughly a 45° angle on the cap.

    Tex is right I’m sure, your most likely getting movement in your indicator stand.

    If it’s a cheap stand then crank the hell out of the locking handles and if possible remove the “fine adjustment” from the equation.

    You don’t need to zero on the number 0. You can zero on any number and test for repeatability.

    In my experience When you twist the lens of the dial indicator to 0 you’ll get movement that will undermine your attempts.

    I bought a NOGA fine adjust stand for around 175$

    But here’s a NOGA stand without the base that I think is a good deal
    NOGA Indicator Holder, Bases, and Stands, Base Type Arm Only, Arm Type Articulating - 56LA99'|'NF60103 - Grainger
    I wasn't serious about the pictures, I have already seen members that have no issues making photos appear in the right position. Should have kept my comments out of it. I wish I could figure it out as well.

    My indicators are older and none of them will zero out even if it's on a digit other than zero. I'm starting to see that there is no telling what my bearing thickness numbers were. Appreciate the tip about zero.

    This is the current magnetic base setup I have

    noga2021-06-25_12-11-43.jpg


    I'm dead in the water for now without a accurate dial indicator of some sort. I'll report back when I can replace what I have.

    I should have left the scale out of it and how I set it up to help make an accurate lift to be measured. It was an opinion only. I didn't want more controversy only consistency. I guess it doesn't matter if it's a steel bar, a brass bar, a broom stick, or a wooden round rod. Maybe a set of brass knuckles would do the trick. Everyone is going to set the bearing clearance according to how they think it should be done even using a bathroom scale.

    The advice on checking the dial indicators with a feelers gauge is super valuable, thanks for that. Great bunch of members

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    Ideally a good, repeatable dial gage that measures down to the 0.0001 inch level is best. Does not need to have a lot of range.

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    For some tools I don't mind cheap stuff. For measuring tools, good named brands are the only way to go imo. But I'm also a thrifty shopper. Buying named brand off ebay is recommended.

    I buy a bunch off ebay for below $30. Dial indicators are the biggest crap shoot. My success rate for used indicators that operate well is about 65%, but I figure that into my cost that it may be junk.

    Spending a little more, $50-ish, I can get a known good indicator, from a known seller that calibrates them as a business:
    ideal.precision on eBay

    Brands I like are Ames, Bestest(anything Brown and sharpe related), Standard, and Starrett. Ames and Standard lesser known add real good value for the dollar.

    A decent site for info, also a good company to calibrate or fix your named indicators:
    Table of Contents

    Their brand name comparison list, they hate on everyone a little, lol:
    Dial Indicator Brand Comparison

    On mag bases. I have done a bunch of alignment and weird checks in tough places. On some alignment checks, the mag base attaches to a large shaft. The shaft rotates 360 degrees during the check. Even set up fairly rigid, as the weight shifts on indicator/base during a 360 rotation, there is x amount of extension rod droop, or set up inaccuracy I need to account for. And that is with minimal joints and extension in set up.

    I explain that because when I see flexible, snake like extensions, or ball joints I cringe a little. My expectation is those joints won't hold as nice as something more rigid. Thus greater inconsistency. The pic you showed of mag base looks too pricey for a set up I can't get rigid enough.

    If you shop it a bit you can find these in the $50-$100 range. Two rotational joints that can be locked pretty tight. The extension rod is fat, firm, and heavy. This is the real deal:

    67.jpg 68.jpg 69.jpg

    Be careful and always watch pics close. Some sellers piece stuff together. Less rigid joints to avoid if possible:

    70.jpg 71.jpg

    A real nice buy. Gamble on indicator, but even if indicator is junk the base has its value:
    Starrett 657 Magnetic Base & Upright Post Assembly with Indicator 25-131 | eBay

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Ideally a good, repeatable dial gage that measures down to the 0.0001 inch level is best. Does not need to have a lot of range.
    I appreciate the recommendation on a good indicator, thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by texasgunsmith View Post
    For some tools I don't mind cheap stuff. For measuring tools, good named brands are the only way to go imo. But I'm also a thrifty shopper. Buying named brand off ebay is recommended.

    I buy a bunch off ebay for below $30. Dial indicators are the biggest crap shoot. My success rate for used indicators that operate well is about 65%, but I figure that into my cost that it may be junk.

    Spending a little more, $50-ish, I can get a known good indicator, from a known seller that calibrates them as a business:
    ideal.precision on eBay

    Brands I like are Ames, Bestest(anything Brown and sharpe related), Standard, and Starrett. Ames and Standard lesser known add real good value for the dollar.

    A decent site for info, also a good company to calibrate or fix your named indicators:
    Table of Contents

    Their brand name comparison list, they hate on everyone a little, lol:
    Dial Indicator Brand Comparison

    On mag bases. I have done a bunch of alignment and weird checks in tough places. On some alignment checks, the mag base attaches to a large shaft. The shaft rotates 360 degrees during the check. Even set up fairly rigid, as the weight shifts on indicator/base during a 360 rotation, there is x amount of extension rod droop, or set up inaccuracy I need to account for. And that is with minimal joints and extension in set up.

    I explain that because when I see flexible, snake like extensions, or ball joints I cringe a little. My expectation is those joints won't hold as nice as something more rigid. Thus greater inconsistency. The pic you showed of mag base looks too pricey for a set up I can't get rigid enough.

    If you shop it a bit you can find these in the $50-$100 range. Two rotational joints that can be locked pretty tight. The extension rod is fat, firm, and heavy. This is the real deal:

    67.jpg 68.jpg 69.jpg

    Be careful and always watch pics close. Some sellers piece stuff together. Less rigid joints to avoid if possible:

    70.jpg 71.jpg

    A real nice buy. Gamble on indicator, but even if indicator is junk the base has its value:
    Starrett 657 Magnetic Base & Upright Post Assembly with Indicator 25-131 | eBay
    Nice looking magnetic bases, I guess I will learn to shop with experience. I bought the NOGA based on a review, I guess I could have searched a little more before buying. Nice looking set you have. Thanks for taking the time to explain it all to me.

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    Greenlee52, don’t take anything here TOO serious, we all Prod&poke as much as we help each other.

    I have a very similar NOGA with the single locking knob, I really have to crank that knob TIGHT to get repeatable results.

    I compared a plunger style harbor freight (2.000) .001 indicator to my lever style Starett (.008) .0001 indicator and to be honest it was pretty much dead nuts on.

    The resolution was not very good but the repeatability was definitely there.

    please trust me before you order anything else!, it takes some serious “getting used to” when setting up and using indicators.

    I had grit under my mag base, the locking knob was not tight enough, the fine adjust was loose, the wrist behind my indicator was loose, the plunger was not square to the part I was measuring.

    You have so many chances to get wonky readings that it just takes ALOT of practice before you get the gut feeling/muscle memory built up.

    Your saying NONE of your indicators will repeat tells me it’s not the indicators.
    It’s the stand/setup.

    Try using the indicator on a solid sound surface and use any old sliver of metal, it doesn’t need to be a feeler gauge per se, and see if the indicator will return to “zero”.

    P.s, you think those indicators are trouble? My .0001 last call is quite difficult to get mounted Securely enough to repeat.

    It’s a real pain in the ass, but does the job once bolted down, held with screw straps, super glue, lead weight, concrete poured and my ole lady sitting on top!

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    I love my NOGA stand and mag base, very strong and sturdy but as I said I’ve noticed it takes SOME FORCE to get that knob tight enough to repeat


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