South Bend 9 inch head stock oiler problems
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    Default South Bend 9 inch head stock oiler problems

    Hello, I have been having issues with my oil supply to my head stock. It seems to be taking to much oil when in use. An attempt was made to attach a drip oil system with a glass view port in place of the original oil stem.

    I noticed that the oil is not filling to an equilibrium level within the view port. The oil found itself dripping down the back gear as the drip system fed the head stock.

    This machine is new to me as machining in general, Any suggestions to whether this is normal or abnormal? Proper head stock etiquette would be much appreciated!

    18c1f050-02c9-42bb-ae31-721b46a12aee.jpg18c1f050-02c9-42bb-ae31-721b46a12aee.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by ddayan View Post
    Hello, I have been having issues with my oil supply to my head stock. It seems to be taking to much oil when in use. An attempt was made to attach a drip oil system with a glass view port in place of the original oil stem.

    I noticed that the oil is not filling to an equilibrium level within the view port. The oil found itself dripping down the back gear as the drip system fed the head stock.

    This machine is new to me as machining in general, Any suggestions to whether this is normal or abnormal? Proper head stock etiquette would be much appreciated!
    If I may take a stab at this, it sounds to me like the spring loaded oiler felt in the headstock under the
    spindle is not making contact. Also, there is a small hole above the Gits flap-top oiler that is level with
    the internal reservoir(s), so any excess should be coming from the holes, not in back.
    Maybe they are plugged?

    img_1879.jpg

    In theory, there is a spring-loaded felt pad that stays in constant contact with the spindle. A cavity
    where this device sits is filled with oil and should remain at least at or below the small hole.
    Oil is naturally delivered via a "wicking" action to the pad, drawing from the oil in the cavity.
    There should be no slinging at all.

    So I think two things are happening here. First, the hole above the oil is probably dirty or plugged.
    Run a pipe cleaner (the type with bristles) through the hole with a bit of thinner on it. Keep doing until
    clean.

    Second, I don't think the felt is reaching the spindle. Do you know when the last time this lathe was
    serviced? Might be time. Is this happening on both the front and the rear of the spindle?
    What year is it?

    Also, I'm not a physicist, but I'm not sure you are going to get an equilibrium from using larger
    reservoir tanks. (?) I don't know. I'd put the originals back on, but what do I know. Maybe send a good
    close-up photo of that oiler attachment? I'd like to see it.!

    PMc

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    While it is true that the spindle is oiled from a felt wick inside the headstock the oil level is actually controlled by the gits oil addition port. There is a little cutout under that spring loaded lid that will keep the level what it should be. Oil should never come out of the holes above it. You can add all the oil you want to the gits and it will adjust the oil level, all over the front of the machine. If the oil is coming out of the bearings your wicks are working just fine. What is not working is the return to the reservoir. There is one on each end of each bearing. Little holes with sometimes a little piece of metal from the factory to restrict. I would bet a few cold ones that is where your problem is. You must remove the spindle to rectify the problem. I don't have a headstock apart right now so I can't post a picture of what you must look at. They do block up after years of use.

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    First, you need to post better pictures - not the bite sized postage stamps you did (posting from an iPhone?).

    I can't tell what that contraption of yours is doing on the front. Is your GITS oiler on the top of the bearing cap? If so, you have a flow-thru oiling system - there is no recovery of the oil (except to wipe it off the machine). Also if so, you might have a felt at the top of the bearing that has disintegrated over the years, letting the oil flow thru way to fast. If the oiler is on the top, you have a lathe from 1935 or earlier.

    If your oiler is on the front of the machine, you have one of the few nonflow-thru systems on a SB lathe. Since you are getting oil to your bearings, your spring/felt system is in place (whether or not it needs replacing remains to be seen). As tommy stated, on some machines, there is a piece of metal in a hole which allows oil to return to the sump. I believe that this is on cast iron bearing machines only. The purpose of that metal is to break the surface tension of the returning oil, so it won't from a bubble and block the return passage.

    But first, let's get some better pictures!

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    Very interesting guys, thanks for the explanations!
    I completely forgot about the notch in the GITS and the recovery holes in the
    headstock casting. I didn't realize the oil level was that low in the cavity.
    So a few squirts of oil thru that hole would result in weeping from the Gits?
    Interesting.

    So is the hole only there for felt replacement reasons?

    Thanks.

    PMc

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    Quote Originally Posted by SLK001 View Post
    First, you need to post better pictures - not the bite sized postage stamps you did (posting from an iPhone?).

    I can't tell what that contraption of yours is doing on the front. Is your GITS oiler on the top of the bearing cap? If so, you have a flow-thru oiling system - there is no recovery of the oil (except to wipe it off the machine). Also if so, you might have a felt at the top of the bearing that has disintegrated over the years, letting the oil flow thru way to fast. If the oiler is on the top, you have a lathe from 1935 or earlier.

    If your oiler is on the front of the machine, you have one of the few nonflow-thru systems on a SB lathe. Since you are getting oil to your bearings, your spring/felt system is in place (whether or not it needs replacing remains to be seen). As tommy stated, on some machines, there is a piece of metal in a hole which allows oil to return to the sump. I believe that this is on cast iron bearing machines only. The purpose of that metal is to break the surface tension of the returning oil, so it won't from a bubble and block the return passage.

    But first, let's get some better pictures!
    The lathe is old but i am not sure how old. The person that serviced the motor said it was from around WW11. The lathe was hardly used in perfect condition when i got it. I am new to machining and could have done something i shouldnt have. There was an instance i realized the head stock were warm and the oiler were empty when i was working. Sometimes the oil will spit back out the oil lid and not sure if its from vibration? 18c1f050-02c9-42bb-ae31-721b46a12aee.jpg
    The rear oiler works fine and hardly needs to be filled with oil when running the machine.

    The oil drip system is attached by a aluminum tube from a distance. It takes time for the oil to travel and seems to gather up before coming down to the view port. When visible in the view port, it appears to be flowing as opposed to filling. Oil simultaneously drips along the gear at a similar rate as the bubbles travel in the view port.


    147353266_356471688654560_8427423592806799477_n.jpg
    149042883_868217893967087_5269774957200040956_n.jpg149042883_868217893967087_5269774957200040956_n.jpg
    147443787_440991130427344_1071032375133178881_n.jpg
    18c1f050-02c9-42bb-ae31-721b46a12aee.jpg

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    147398912_263555608604769_6658507511010167384_n.jpg[attach=config]313543[

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    do you know how a water level works ? I think that may be part of the problem .I would order a set of spindle wicks & put the original Gits
    oilers back in . Ans don't forger to soak the new wicks over night before you put them in .
    YMMV
    animal

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    I do have a decent photo of the inside of a headstock bearing;
    thought I'd add it for visualization.

    PMc

    img_1575.jpg headstock-oil-return-hole.jpg

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    how difficult is removing the the spindle?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ddayan View Post
    The person that serviced the motor said it was from around WW11.
    Dear God what happened in the other 9 WW's ?

    I can't see through the brass fitting in any of your pics to know, but some South Bends have like a 1/8" drilled hole in headstock just to the other side of that fitting.

    Oil level should be about dead even with the very bottom side of spindle. Pull chuck maybe to better gauge it. There are no seals on spindle or headstock. So if you over fill it will absolutely leak.

    As mentioned the original gits oiler has a notch cut just under its lid, or a drilled hole. The height of that notch, and the height of the 1/8" drilled hole, AND the bottom of spindle should be very close to inline with each other. Overfilling should let oil drip from the gits and/or that 1/8" hole. A different headstock, but note drilled holes in gits and head stock:

    382.jpg

    You don't have a gits oiler. You have a brass fitting contraption. It appears to have a weap hole. Is that weap hole inline with the VERY bottom of spindle and bottom of headstock journal for spindle. If the height is above that, you will leak, no seals to stop it.

    Another possible issue are gutters on each side of each journal in headstock. Those gutters have an oil drain back hole, which catches slung oil, and returns it. If drain hole is plugged, it will also leak. Example:

    374.jpg

    And again, note this last pic. No oil seals. If you fill above the very bottom of this journal, it will leak out. You want oil level to be at, or just a C hair below that hole in the center on journal. That hole is where the spring loaded felt goes.

    Temperature rise may or may not be another issue. Take a prybar and lift up on spindle with a dial indicator to measure clearance. Might check spindle end thrust as well.

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    If your machine is from the WW2 era, then it has a cast iron bearing - thus that metal piece that breaks the surface tension I mentioned earlier. There is really no need for a sight glass for the oil level here - it is not a flow-thru system. With the oil being thrown out, I would suspect that the metal piece has broken and fallen into the sump. But also, with the oil being thrown out, it means that the wick and spring are working properly (but maybe not effectively if they are hardened).

    Get the rebuild book and kit from Ilion Industries. It will definitely help you with your lathe. I'm not sure if it contains the metal piece, but if you look at one, it can easily be duplicated (I have bronze bearings in my lathe, so no metal clip).

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    Quote Originally Posted by ddayan View Post
    The lathe is old but i am not sure how old. The person that serviced the motor said it was from around WW11. The lathe was hardly used in perfect condition when i got it. I am new to machining and could have done something i shouldnt have. There was an instance i realized the head stock were warm and the oiler were empty when i was working. Sometimes the oil will spit back out the oil lid and not sure if its from vibration?
    The rear oiler works fine and hardly needs to be filled with oil when running the machine.

    The oil drip system is attached by a aluminum tube from a distance. It takes time for the oil to travel and seems to gather up before coming down to the view port. When visible in the view port, it appears to be flowing as opposed to filling. Oil simultaneously drips along the gear at a similar rate as the bubbles travel in the view port.
    Not to worry Mr Dayan, you've done nothing wrong. In fact, over-filling a cranky, old, leaky, cast iron machine from WWII is a good thing, actually.
    (Actually, a very close self-description there).
    As long as you keep EVERYTHING well-oiled, there's no reason you can't use it occasionally.
    But yeah, it's probably getting to be time for a cleaning and re-felting of the machine. Not difficult,
    just time consuming. Ditto on getting the rebuild book and kit from Ilion Industries.

    BTW, here's a vid on spindle removal:
    https://youtu.be/U1agcVkQ63U

    PMc

    img_0805.jpg

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    Here's a picture of the metal piece (clip):



    Here's a picture of the clip installed:



    Both of these pictures are from a Heavy 10 of the same era. My guess is that the 9" will be very similar. When you pull your headstock, you will probably either find one intact, or the broken parts to copy a new one from.

    Sorry for the PP watermark crap. That's why I suggest that people post their pictures HERE on this board.

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    thanks every one, now i can sleep tonight!


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