strange oiler on heavy 10

Gard · Apr 14, 2021

I recently acquired this lathe mfg about 1943, it needs some work. I filled the spindle oil cups with the correct oil, turn it on and the right cup is empty in about a minute. Any idea why the cups would be mounted so high? Was anything like this ever standard? Any suggestions on a source for the correct oiler? I will be checking for excessive play in the spindle.

The other thing I noticed quick is the new looking leather belt appears to be a couple inches too long, the belt tension is adjusted to max and the spindle barely turns. What kind of glue would be suitable for shortening the belt? Can I use a normal wood glue or perhaps superglue I have on hand or is there something special I should get?

I am attaching a photo of the headstock, not sure why it appears to be rotated in the preview

SLK001 · Apr 14, 2021

Have you looked to see where the oil went? The oil cup emptying that fast indicates a problem. You most likely have the segmented cast iron bearings. These bearings have a wire clip that breaks the surface tension of the oil which allows it to drain back into the sump. Also, filling the cups to the top puts the oil level above the top of the sump, which means that the oil will naturally drain out to the level of the sump. For this reason, you should get the correct GITS oilers and replace those contraptions you have now. If that doesn't fix your problem, you need to pull your spindle and look for those clips.

Here's what the clips look like (each bearing has one):

1yesca · Apr 14, 2021

i just did a spindle change on a 10 heavy 1943 [from 1-7/8 to 2-1/4 ]and it had them brass wire clips did not know what they did or were for but i did make sure they went back in . now i know thanks for that info

M.B. Naegle · Apr 14, 2021

Concerning the leather belt. There's a good chance it's just stretched out over time. You can shorten it, but wood glue will not work as it's meant to dry to a rigid form, whereas the leather is constantly bending. look up Barge leather cement. You can get a little tube of it for a few bucks and know it'll work. Make sure the belt is as clean as possible, cut the overlapping ends to equal tapers about as long as the belt is wide, and rough them up so the fibers can bond with the glue better. Be sure your belt is running with the rough side out and smooth side it. It doesn't sound right, but it's because the rough side flexes better which means it won't stretch and wear as fast. With the right tension, the smooth side has plenty of friction to drive the machine.

Or you can do like most and replace it with a synthetic belt, but IMO leather belts don't get enough love.

jwearing · Apr 14, 2021

My guess is that it’s missing the felt wicks, and the PO added raised the oilers to raise the head of oil up to spindle level. But at that level the oil will leak out.

chipss · Apr 15, 2021

Those vertical mounted lathes need the oil cups rotated 90 degrees so the oil won't drain out.
Had to say it...

Rotated pic is likely from an apple phone.

Ok, step 1.
Change the felt wicks.

Step 2
Put normal oil cups on it and the oil level won't be so high it leaks out.

texasgeartrain · Apr 15, 2021

That whole chain of fittings is wrong. You could save time by just pouring oil straight of the ground

.

There is no seals to keep oil in the spindle journal. Oil height/level needs to be at the bottom of each journal. There are gutters running the circumference to return slung oil to bottom. But absolute height is the very bottom of each journal.

You want cups to screw directly into head stock, where cup oil level matches the bottom of journal.

jim rozen · Apr 15, 2021

Something's missing in the photo - the interior of the large oil cups. They probably are the kind with the pipe cleaner wick, like in M heads.

If that wick is missing and he's filling it up above standpipe you'd get the oil loss mentioned above. Or, if they're just plain oil cups, then
that's a big o'l mistake.

Gard · Apr 15, 2021

Thanks for all the replies, I have added barge cement to my shopping basket for the leather drive belt.

The existing oiler cups do not have any wicks in them. I unscrewed one and then used a slide hammer to remove the plug, I was glad to see mostly clean oil come out. There is a felt wick visible with about 1/4 inch above the spring. There is a layer of black sludge in there I am thinking I should just squirt some diesel fuel or perhaps gasoline in there to flush it out. I am a little hesitant to blow it out with compressed air that may just move crap further.

I also have a SB 14 1/2" lathe that seems to have the same controls. The oil cups on it is abou1 1" tall. Does the heavy 10 use the same cups? They seem similar to Mcmaster Carr 1237K11. Can anyone confirm that this part will work on the heavy 10? They seems a little pricy for $25 ea but nothing much better on the internet at the moment I can find.

thermite · Apr 15, 2021

M.B. Naegle said:
Concerning the leather belt. There's a good chance it's just stretched out over time. You can shorten it, but wood glue will not work as it's meant to dry to a rigid form, whereas the leather is constantly bending. look up Barge leather cement. You can get a little tube of it for a few bucks and know it'll work. Make sure the belt is as clean as possible, cut the overlapping ends to equal tapers about as long as the belt is wide, and rough them up so the fibers can bond with the glue better. Be sure your belt is running with the rough side out and smooth side it. It doesn't sound right, but it's because the rough side flexes better which means it won't stretch and wear as fast. With the right tension, the smooth side has plenty of friction to drive the machine.

Or you can do like most and replace it with a synthetic belt, but IMO leather belts don't get enough love.

School shop, end of the 1950's, we put new leather belts on the sole 10" SB about once or twice a year (old belt was still like-new, usually) for the primary purpose of TEACHING the class how to do the skiving of the leather and the bonding. Our taper was about triple the width of the belt.

The rest of the "trick" involved a wooden board with wooden guide rails, both sides of the ends to be glued, open space where the actual joint would be made.

The rails insured the belt ends were DEAD STRAIGHT to each other across the joined area.

A top board spread the clamping force. Ignorant newspaper, two layers only, above as well as below, and the glue didn't attach the belt to the freakin' boards.

Don't forget the newspaper!

Left clamped overnight. Put on the lathe, next day.

"Love?" Hard to beat a seamless natural leather belt for smoooooooooooth.

DAMNED hard!

Soft as it is, leather is TOUGH!

Holds an entire cow or even a massive BULL together for their whole lifetime, don't it? They'd be dead without it. And usually ARE!

Try THAT with yer Funk & Synthetics?

Told yah!

Gard · Apr 16, 2021

thermite said:
School shop, end of the 1950's, we put new leather belts on the sole 10" SB about once or twice a year (old belt was still like-new, usually) for the primary purpose of TEACHING the class how to do the skiving of the leather and the bonding. Our taper was about triple the width of the belt.

The rest of the "trick" involved a wooden board with wooden guide rails, both sides of the ends to be glued, open space where the actual joint would be made.

The rails insured the belt ends were DEAD STRAIGHT to each other across the joined area.

A top board spread the clamping force. Ignorant newspaper, two layers only, above as well as below, and the glue didn't attach the belt to the freakin' boards.

Don't forget the newspaper!

Left clamped overnight. Put on the lathe, next day.

"Love?" Hard to beat a seamless natural leather belt for smoooooooooooth.

DAMNED hard!

Soft as it is, leather is TOUGH!

Holds an entire cow or even a massive BULL together for their whole lifetime, don't it? They'd be dead without it. And usually ARE!

Try THAT with yer Funk & Synthetics?

Told yah!

The gluing clamp sounds like a good idea, along with newspaper. I removed the old belt, it had one of those staple-pin mechanical connectors and was installed upside down. Turns out there it is only about 1 inch too long so I will end up with a skive taper about the same as the width. I don't want to disassemble the entire lathe so I guess the clamp will need to be short enough to fit under the belt when it is running over the pulleys, perhaps I should make one out of sheet metal that is bendable?

SLK001 · Apr 16, 2021

Gard said:
I don't want to disassemble the entire lathe so I guess the clamp will need to be short enough to fit under the belt when it is running over the pulleys, perhaps I should make one out of sheet metal that is bendable?

You can't put a continuous belt on a H10. It has to be assembled in situ. It's better to use waxed paper or parchment paper to keep the glue off the jig. Make the jig out of wood, or aluminum so that it is stiff and solid. You'll probably have to do the gluing in the motor compartment, because that is where the longest straight run is located.

M.B. Naegle · Apr 16, 2021

Gard said:
The gluing clamp sounds like a good idea, along with newspaper. I removed the old belt, it had one of those staple-pin mechanical connectors and was installed upside down. Turns out there it is only about 1 inch too long so I will end up with a skive taper about the same as the width. I don't want to disassemble the entire lathe so I guess the clamp will need to be short enough to fit under the belt when it is running over the pulleys, perhaps I should make one out of sheet metal that is bendable?

The staple-pin connectors are handy for installing a belt in a "blind" location, but the drawback is the *-tick-tick-tick* of it going around, which can be romantic for some, annoying to others. IMO the clip won't effect the performance on a South Bend. Interruptions in the belt would only cause issue with high tolerance/high finish parts. That said, if you want a smoother operation, you can cut the clip out and you'll need to glue it together in the machine, but I think you would only need to loop it through the head-stock. After the glue has dried, you can drop it down and around the bottom pulley. If you don't mind the clip though, you can shorten the belt while it's flat on a bench and use the clip to install it.

thermite · Apr 16, 2021

Gard said:
The gluing clamp sounds like a good idea, along with newspaper. I removed the old belt, it had one of those staple-pin mechanical connectors and was installed upside down. Turns out there it is only about 1 inch too long so I will end up with a skive taper about the same as the width. I don't want to disassemble the entire lathe so I guess the clamp will need to be short enough to fit under the belt when it is running over the pulleys, perhaps I should make one out of sheet metal that is bendable?

We never bothered. Glueing was done on a workench. Child's play (well 9th grade?) to pull the spindle, show them what to look for, what to DO about it. Waxed paper sounds good. Newsprint was what we had. Wood shop used it too. Makes a highly predictable "breakable" glue-line even when soaked. Fibers are then just fluff, and easily scuffed-off.

The countershaft wasn't even worth mentioning. Not as if it were a "Herringbone" Sidney, ATW Pacemaker, or a LeBlond with servo-shift.

A SB is about as simple-primitive as a lathe can get and still be able to do anything actually useful. If only just barely!

"Iron deficiency anemia" thing. Amongst "cone heads" compare it with a Hendey tie-bar fossil. Hard-working wide, heavy bed ole' Hendey is like to have more arn in the chip-pan than a South Bent ever owned for its personal use!

Not all Dinosaurians evolved into birds or lizards. Some liked being heavy-set so well they just STAYED that way! Hendey crowd thought it a SPORT to put so dam' much arn into a lathe as to misdirect magnetic compasses on mail planes and such.

jim rozen · Apr 16, 2021

An easy way to skive a leather belt:

Caveats: belt needs to have the second skive on the correct side. Skiving both ends
the same way does not work well. Been there. Also notice the two aluminum
angles double as assembly fixtures, and the skive angle in marked in the anodization
of the one angle.

thermite · Apr 16, 2021

Gard said:
The gluing clamp sounds like a good idea, along with newspaper. I removed the old belt, it had one of those staple-pin mechanical connectors and was installed upside down. Turns out there it is only about 1 inch too long so I will end up with a skive taper about the same as the width. I don't want to disassemble the entire lathe so I guess the clamp will need to be short enough to fit under the belt when it is running over the pulleys, perhaps I should make one out of sheet metal that is bendable?

Could work. Plastic channel, even?

Believe it or not, 'tic" sound aside, those metal (and laced and / or stitched) butt joinings are not assuredly even detectable as to disadvantage at "watermarking" a fine finish. All the REST of a belt in contact during the "wrap" portion of travel is the same.

It is waaay more convenient to retain it if there is enough leather to trim, move it, replace or re-crimp.

I have one here, composite flat-belt salvaged from an early 1040's Monarch "Mg' drive 10EE. Metal joining! And THOSE lathes WERE picky about watemarking! At least for SOME of their work.

McMaster still carry them. Check which type is easiest to apply and whether the special tool for attaching each side to the belt is needed.

texasgeartrain · Apr 16, 2021

Not leather, but these guys make very good belts:
Baltimore Belting – 766 E 25th St, Baltimore, MD 21218 (410) 338-1230

Shipped to you for probably inside of $70.

Staples with the push pin. I think I heard the tic, tic, tic maybe the first couple times I ran lathe. Now I'm oblivious, lol.

The type of belt is the same you'll see listed for South Bend belts on ebay. Ask for 3/16" thick, plus your other dimensions. You call them on the phone to place order. Quality work and service.

Gard · Jul 14, 2021

The glued belt is holding up well so far and the correct oil cups have solved the oil consumption issue. I have been working away at getting other things worked out. I have made a few parts on the lathe to fix parts of the lathe so that is cool. I noticed that turning the cross slide counterclockwise increases the depth of cut. I have used several other lathes and they all increased depth of cut with clockwise rotation. Is this normal, optional or some sort of weird retrofit? It is a heavy 10 with taper attachment.

mcload · Jul 14, 2021

Here ya' go:

View attachment 324634

texasgeartrain · Jul 14, 2021

Gard said:
I have used several other lathes and they all increased depth of cut with clockwise rotation. Is this normal, optional or some sort of weird retrofit? It is a heavy 10 with taper attachment.

Not normal. All such feed screws need to be left hand thread. Think about turning a nut and bolt together, where the bolt is the dial, nut the cross slide. With a regular nut and bolt(right hand thread) you would drawl nut toward you.

For cross feed its left hand threads, it should push compound away. If its pulling toward you, someone tried a repair or something with regular right hand stuff, maybe all-thread or something,

.

strange oiler on heavy 10

Aluminum

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Hot Rolled

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Titanium

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Aluminum

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Aluminum

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