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Are these ways too far gone?

MyLilMule

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jan 5, 2021
Location
Ohio, USA
I just purchased this 113-B. Appears to be made in 1941 - although not certain - just an estimate based on the serial number. I ordered a serial card from Grizzly. Hoping that it comes through. I am excited to see who owned it first.

In any case, the lathe was dirty with a lot of chipped paint. The ways were smooth - not a lot of damage, some near the chuck, of course. But there is a very noticeable step on them where what appears to be significant wear. I am not sure if this picture shows it well enough. My first lathe, and I am not doing precision work, but I have no idea if these are too far gone, or should I look for a new bed, or have this one ground, or just send it?

Any useful comments are appreciated.

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If you are not doing precision work, just run it. If you decide in the future you need more precision, sell it and buy something else. No, it is not economically feasible to re-grind.

Good to know. I had planned on doing a decent restoration on it (getting the kit from eBay that has the felts and such). Is it worth it to go through the trouble of painting it, with this condition of the ways? I guess what I am getting at, is how "bad" are these and where would I notice it the most in the output of my machining?

For reference:

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If it was mine, I would tear it down and clean/inspect all parts, if it needs parts the cost of those would determine which direction to go, either part out, or buy parts needed to complete. If you opt to reassemble, sure throw in a felt kit and slap a coat of industrial paint on it. Yes it is worth it, if nothing else for the lesson of how to work on a lathe. I am not an expert on how wear will affect operation, in my experience it will only be a problem on long pieces, and it will show as a gradual taper, as you get to know the machine you can work around it.

A few things every new lathe operator needs to know. #1 3 jaw chucks are not repeatable, #2 feed knobs always have some backlash, they are not precision ball screws #3 the machine WILL bite you if you give it the chance.

Have fun, get to work!
 
There is no sin in running a worn lathe

The only sin is in paying for a worn lathe

Unless you are interested in a project rather than a machine, check the obvious trouble points and run it.

It will make parts.

Just not straight shafts or accurate parts without sneaking up on it
 
Well, given my age, I'd say my ways are a bit worn too, and I could definitely use a felt job,
but I'm not quite ready to be a boat anchor. Just because it's old doesn't mean its useless.

I would agree that since you've made the financial commitment, go ahead and clean it up thoroughly
and put in new felts. That's just labor on your end without a lot of out of pocket expense, and it's good experience. This lathe will more than likely make almost any part you need to. She looks like a brute!
But yes, go into it knowing that it may be beyond ultra-precision.

Disassembly, cleaning, and re-assembly will take a lot of time. Adding paint to it will take
that much longer (depending on how you do it). Nothing wrong with old cast-iron patina as long
as its clean and kept rust free.

If you are thinking it might be an investment to fix up and flip later, then this is probably
not the lathe. As long as the electric motor doesn't need replacing, then you should be okay.
I would forget about replacing the bed, and especially re-grinding. The saddle is worn out too.
Hopefully you won't run into any busted gears or parts.

Did you get a 4-jaw chuck with it by any chance? Take some more photos and post them here.

Remember, don't get in a hurry, take lots of before/during/after photos, and put small parts in
plastic bags and label them...there will be plenty of those. Once you get it in final position,
try to avoid the temptation of running it. Soak a rag with oil and slather it all over the
machine...she looks thirsty! (And have your engine hoist standing by...heavy parts!).

BTW, although not as heavy as your lathe, you should check out this thread for inspiration!
South Bend heavy 10 rebuild

Good luck, and welcome to the churn.

PMc
 
while the ways are pretty worn, the machine may still be useable.

One thing you might want to consider is leveling the ways, and then using turcite $$$ to rebuild the ways. I don't know how the rest of the machine is, but I suspect it's worn too. But the turcite can make the ways like new.
 
Oil everything and power it up. See how it works and cuts. If you don't like something fix it, while its apart paint it. This can be done all at once or a little at a time. As for the ways.... you can refelt, paint, and have them done later IF you decide that is necessary. Before you take out the first screw buy How to rebuild a South Bend lathe. You can get the book with the proper lubes from ebay.

Sent from my SM-T713 using Tapatalk
 
Good to know. I had planned on doing a decent restoration on it (getting the kit from eBay that has the felts and such). Is it worth it to go through the trouble of painting it, with this condition of the ways? I guess what I am getting at, is how "bad" are these and where would I notice it the most in the output of my machining?

The greatest thing you can do is clean, lube, and re-felt, so yes buy the kit. Paint ? Up to you. I prefer new paint, some prefer patina.

Even with terrible wear you can make very good and accurate parts. Also during a re-felt there are minor improvements, adjustments, and repairs that can greatly improve the machine.

Consider, even a new bed will begin to wear at some point. As you use machine, you learn it. You learn what compensations to do, or other tricks, checks and such to get desired results.

Another short answer: Think how long of a cut you are going to make on a shaft, bearing , whatever. Most are short cuts. 1 to 5 or 6 inches in length. I absolutely guarantee you could hold well inside .001" over a 2" length cut with the ways as they are. And probably .001 to .0015" over a 6 inch length cut. However if you want to cut a shaft 24" long. . . well you'll need to do some work to get a low variance number.

Clean, lube and re-felt is cheap, dollar wise. The expense will be time. Working in your free time, you'll be months easy to tear down and put back together. Minor repairs could cost you a few hundred. More extensive repairs, probably $1000. And that's not way repair either. But finished and nicely operational you could sell it for $1500 by accident, more if it comes out decent.

But going through the process is educational about the machine, you'll have deeper understanding once you are operating it. Like others mentioned, if you out grown it, sell it and upgrade.
 
Another basic truth of machines is that paint does nothing for the accuracy of the machine. Unless you really enjoy painting things only to see the paint come back off from oil and cutting fluids. Cleaning is good though. The lathe will not rust due to the fact that South Bend machines drool oil all over themselves.

So far as the ways are concerned I think you'd be surprised at how little difference that will make in your ability to make parts particularly since you are aware of the situation.

Clean it, oil it, use it. Make some stuff!
 
Good to avoid spray can cleaners and rag wipe clean with some spirits added to the oil, Pick out chips not air hose blowing. Be sure the head is taking oil.

Don't wire brush number dials, but fine file the bugs just down to the original surface and then use fin abrasive paper to clean up. Just leave them alone is good.

Great advice from Texasgunsmith:
[Another short answer: Think how long of a cut you are going to make on a shaft, bearing , whatever. Most are short cuts. 1 to 5 or 6 inches in length. I absolutely guarantee you could hold well inside .001" over a 2" length cut with the ways as they are. And probably .001 to .0015" over a 6 inch length cut. However if you want to cut a shaft 24" long. . . well you'll need to do some work to get a low variance number.]
 
That wear means little for non-precise work.

For example to the OP.

Draw a circle on a sheet of paper with a compass so you have the center point.

Next with a ruler draw line through circle at that center point.

Move the ruler 1/16 inch and draw another line.

Now with calipers (virtual one in brain works or real one) measure from center point to where line crosses circle of both lines.

Very little difference.

It only really matters on long continuous cuts that result in carriage being fully on different wear patterns.

A good operator can compensate for that so clean It up, use it and learn.

Watch for a better one and enjoy it and the hunt.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
 
Kroil and an assortment of soft brass brushes work well for cutting through gum, tar and rust if you don't want to repaint it. Drill-mounted cup and wheel brushes are especially handy for big surfaces and tight crevices. Paint will probably double the time and labor investment. Probably looking at 50-80 man-hours to rebuild it without paint depending on your cosmetic preferences. If you order the felt kit from Ebay, do yourself a favor by sorting & labeling all the felts in advance using the appendix in the back of the book. Major sanity saver. Skim through the whole book before you start too and write down any tools it calls for that you don't have. Saves weeks of waiting for specialty tools to arrive. Wood chisels, a particular pin wrench for the compound collar, a cotter pin for the U.M.D. crank spring, a short length of 1/4" rope to jam gears, a 5/8" (?) drag link socket, a selection of claw pullers, an arbor and/or hydraulic press, a selection of pin punches, etc, etc. Also note that the older lathes used oil in the back gear and cone pulley bearings rather than the white teflon grease that is now becoming scarce. If it was originally run on oil, it might be advantageous to keep it on oil - just be diligent in oiling it with every use.
 
As most of us here it can be considered as a hobby toy. Clean it up and run it to see how it works for you. If you want more tooling and accuracy yeah, as Dal said I'd likely look for something else in better shape. If it's what you need maybe advance to the Krylon update.
 
Thanks for all the feedback.

Plans often change, as will these, I am sure.

The current plan-ish thing I think I might have in mind :D, will be to get the rebuild kit and tear it apart, clean it and paint it. I've watched a few series of videos on the YouTubes and I like what they have done. I don't know to what extreme this rebuild will get to, but, one day at a time.

I have seen it running, but not "working" - I didn't cut anything with it. I did my best to inspect all of the gears, and everything seems to be in order. I couldn't get to the change gears to SEE them, but only with a flashlight and a cell phone camera, but the tumbler engages in each of the slots, and I didn't see anything obvious.

The reason why it's going to be torn down, is it appears a previous owner (I suspect the most recent before me) decided it was a good idea to fill the oil cups with what appears to be white lithium grease. Oyy! He didn't seem to know what he was doing, but he also said it sat for the last few years almost never being used. My labor is free, and I enjoy refurbishing old things, so this will be a fun project.

I got a rough quote to plane the ways and saddle, and I don't think the $1,000 to do that is where I want to put any money at this point. I'd rather invest in tooling so I can actually use it.

She looks rough, but I have seen rougher for twice the money. But I also didn't get anything more than you see here, except for a chuck key. The only things I know I want to have fairly soon will be a quick change tool post and a drill chuck.

But it does have a new motor in it. 1.5hp, 1725RPM, 220v Single Phase. Perfect for my shop.

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Thanks for all the feedback.

I had a nice long reply that covered a lot of ground, but for some reason, has disappeared from this thread.
 








 
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