War machine needs a new motor
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    Default War machine needs a new motor

    Well i've been trying to save the old GE plain bearing 1.5HP motor that came with my 14 1/2 but I think I need to shelf it until I can get it professionally rebuilt.

    When I first got the lathe the power cord was cut and needed to be rewired. The previous owner said it used to run but wasn't used in a long time and was just stored in his building. The motor looks like it is original and the frame is some bazaar code that predates NEMA. Takes #10 spindle oil and has two gits oil cups. 1 ph 1.5HP and BIG. I REALLY like the look of this motor and will save it until I can get it to a motor shop.

    The motor was covered in crud and chips. Lots of old gunked up oil, spiders, and whatever mice stashed in every nook and cranny. I vacuumed up everything the shop vac could reach and wiped everything down with mineral spirits until it was nice and clean. I didn't want to remove the motor from the mounting plate (It's a big heavy sumbitch and won't fit through the access door - and I don't want to jack up the lathe 3' to pull it out from under it). I added some oil to the cups and plugged it in. There was a terrible humming sound and the motor barely spun. I heard lots of clicking and looked at the end where the brushes are and saw lots of sparks - NFG. I popped the end bell off where the brushes are and cleaned everything inside. The brushes are in great shape but were frozen in place. I cleaned the comutator with electric motor cleaner aerosol spray. It looked pretty clean on this end so I put it back together and tried again. This time no sparks and more RPMS but still seemed very weak. Reverse wouldn't work unless I spun the chuck by hand and got it moving. Even then I could grab the chuck and stall the motor (I shouldn't be able to do that with a 1.5hp motor). That was about a year ago and last weekend I finally popped the pulley side off and cleaned out the rotor side. Again I used electric motor cleaner aerosol and the vacuum. There was some old sunflower seeds in the windings. Cleaned all that junk out and last night was finally able to put the end bell back on and flip the switch. More RPMS but still no torque. I can grab the chuck and stop it from spinning.

    Sooooooooo my garage only has 110v outlets. I recently found an unused 220 breaker which runs to an unused outlet near the garage. The wiring is 10-3 NM-B and the run from the breaker box is about 200'. I'm not sure if 10-3 is a heavy enough gauge wire to safely run the machinery at that length of a run. I've done some reading and some people suggest 8 gauge wire and some say 10 is fine. I guess it all depends on the load the new motor will pull. I can't easily replace the 10-3 from the breaker because it runs above the ceiling of the finished basement. If it were a drop ceiling I would pop a tile and take a peek but it's all textured so i'm not poking holes in that all willy-nilly.

    Getting a VFD and running a 3~ motor doesn't make sense on 110v. I can get another 1.5hp 110v motor for the price of a VFD then I'd still have to buy a 3~ motor (and only be able to run a 1 - 2 hp 3~ on 110v anyhow).


    All that being said, what frame motor is everyone using in their 14/16" lathes? Is there anything i'm missing regarding the low torque of the original GE motor?

    Thanks in advance!

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    A few pictures would help. The motor sounds like a repulsion-induction motor. Their starting torque depended on brushes and a commutator. If that be the case, it sounds like the orientation of the brushes is needing adjustment. That is also the way to reverse the motor, by turning the brushes.

    Tom

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    What size is the shaft?

    And what is the obsolete frame number?


    IMO 110v is very limited over 1HP if there is anything else on the circuit...if you can use the 220 it opens things up considersbly.

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    Default War machine needs a new motor

    Did you check to make sure the motor isn’t currently wired for 220 V since you had to install a new cord? What’s the amp rating for 220 V on the motor plate? It should be 1/2 of what the 110 V rating is, and I would think it would be around 10 A which should be fine for that run of 10-3.

    Edit: Here’s a reference stating 10 ga copper should be good for a 200’ run at 220 V and 15 A.

    Voltage Drop Tables - Cerrowire

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by TDegenhart View Post
    A few pictures would help. The motor sounds like a repulsion-induction motor. Their starting torque depended on brushes and a commutator. If that be the case, it sounds like the orientation of the brushes is needing adjustment. That is also the way to reverse the motor, by turning the brushes.

    Tom
    Yes you are correct it is a reversible repulsion induction motor. The brushes looked to be in very good condition to me. Large rectangle blocks of black carbon with the old GE logo cast in them. I cleaned them up with mineral spirits and cleaned the springs that hold them against the commutator. The brushes have a 45* slant (or whatever the angle is) to match the circumference of the commutator.



    Quote Originally Posted by iwananew10K View Post
    What size is the shaft?

    And what is the obsolete frame number?


    IMO 110v is very limited over 1HP if there is anything else on the circuit...if you can use the 220 it opens things up considersbly.

    1" shaft

    The frame is:

    225

    I agree with the 110v bottleneck statement. I can tie into the unused 220 I found by adding a gang box and cutting a hole somewhere to run the 10-3 into the garage and wire up an outlet for the lathe. That would open up the posibility of using a bigger single phase motor or going 3~ + VFD for even better performance. All options floating in my head that I feel the need to talk out loud to other people.




    Quote Originally Posted by USNmechanic View Post
    Did you check to make sure the motor isn’t currently wired for 220 V since you had to install a new cord? What’s the amp rating for 220 V on the motor plate? It should be 1/2 of what the 110 V rating is, and I would think it would be around 10 A which should be fine for that run of 10-3.

    Edit: Here’s a reference stating 10 ga copper should be good for a 200’ run at 220 V and 15 A.

    Voltage Drop Tables - Cerrowire

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Yes I made sure to check the wiring from the drum switch back to the motor to verify it's all 110. I followed the wiring diagram on the motor plate and the diagram inside the drum switch.

    The amps on the motor plate are:

    115v
    15.6 /17

    230v
    7.8 /8.5





    It's a really cool old motor and i'd love to leave it in there. I'd love to leave it in a period correct state (minus the Aloris CA I have in the tool post ). I only wrench on it with old =v= craftsman tools and I have a vintage Jacobs 14n Super chuck with the knurled barrel in the tail stock. This thing is like a time machine and I have some respect for antiques.
    Last edited by savage_hunter; 06-04-2019 at 01:59 PM. Reason: Forgot to answer a question

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    Richard, that link is awesome! Thank you for that! Unfortunately there isn't anything available that matches this motor. I limited the search to just that frame (225) and found 16 results but none that are single phase. This motor is something unusual (at least now a days).

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    Is that an 1140rpm motor?

    How close are you to Hillside,NJ?

    sourcing is kind of my thing, if you post your zip or locale I'll see what I can turn up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iwananew10K View Post
    Is that an 1140rpm motor?

    How close are you to Hillside,NJ?

    sourcing is kind of my thing, if you post your zip or locale I'll see what I can turn up.

    The motor RPMs are 1750/1450.

    I live in PA. Hillside is about 4 hours one way for me.

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    I would definely try it with 220 and just let it run without load for a while.

    might be just fine without that big amp draw on the 110 circuit.

    probably already did but check the switch contacts too.

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    How close to Williamsport Electric Motor ? He's done good work for me in the past. PB

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    If that motor was put in at the factory, it WILL come out one of the access doors. On my 14.5 " I built a cradle out of 1/2" or 3/4" plywood with 2"x4" wedges to cradle the 2 speed motor. Stacked 2 by's under neath the cradle to get proper height. Remove mounting bolts (assuming you removed belts and wiring). Motor now sets on cradle. Slide out one layer of 2x's that support cradle, more if necessary (I don't know how big this motor is,mine are all 3ph) and you can spin motor cradle and slide it around to manipulate motor through access door. If your lathe was dismantled, it would be easier to lay the "bell" (motor housing base) upside down to remove the motor.
    It's really not that tough, just requires a little aforethought and finesse. Good luck. PB

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    Well I may have solved my 220 issue. Just went an looked at a house with a 40 x 80 building. Going to check if I can get 3 phase to the shop. Looks like i'm going to be moving soon.


    Quote Originally Posted by packardbill View Post
    How close to Williamsport Electric Motor ? He's done good work for me in the past. PB

    I'm an hour or so from Williamsport. Just a quick up on to I80 and roll. I go over to Euro Optics every so often which is just east of there. I pass through Williamsport to get there.


    Quote Originally Posted by iwananew10K View Post
    I would definely try it with 220 and just let it run without load for a while.

    might be just fine without that big amp draw on the 110 circuit.

    probably already did but check the switch contacts too.
    I let it run for a good while how it's wired up now, but maybe it is too much draw for the circuit as it is. The lights are on the same circuit (6 4' LED light bars so not much current to those) and they don't dim or cut out. Anything is possible I suppose, electricity is pretty much magic to me!

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    Wow!! You're going to move to a new house just so you can run your new lathe? Now that's what I call an enthusiast! I think I'll tell my wife we need a new house so I can have access to real 3 phase power!

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    Quote Originally Posted by packardbill View Post
    If that motor was put in at the factory, it WILL come out one of the access doors. On my 14.5 " I built a cradle out of 1/2" or 3/4" plywood with 2"x4" wedges to cradle the 2 speed motor. Stacked 2 by's under neath the cradle to get proper height. Remove mounting bolts (assuming you removed belts and wiring). Motor now sets on cradle. Slide out one layer of 2x's that support cradle, more if necessary (I don't know how big this motor is,mine are all 3ph) and you can spin motor cradle and slide it around to manipulate motor through access door. If your lathe was dismantled, it would be easier to lay the "bell" (motor housing base) upside down to remove the motor.
    It's really not that tough, just requires a little aforethought and finesse. Good luck. PB
    If I were to remove all the pulleys it would fit through the access door. I REALLY don't want to do that because the cast iron pulley has a crack. It's a 3 belt pulley but only using 2 belts (probably because of the crack). I'm worried that if I put a puller on there it would damage it even more so I think it's best to let sleeping dogs lie in this situation. Sure I could machine a new pulley later, but i'm trying to leave the machine as original as I can. I really like antiques!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dobermann View Post
    Wow!! You're going to move to a new house just so you can run your new lathe? Now that's what I call an enthusiast! I think I'll tell my wife we need a new house so I can have access to real 3 phase power!
    We've been looking for a new house for 3 years now and this one just popped up. The house is great but the outbuilding needs some repair. I'm waiting on some documentation then i'm going to send inspectors and contractors for quotes to fix the issues.

    I've been working out of a single bay in a two car garage. Doing any work requires shifting tool boxes and machines around like one of those slide puzzles:

    _35.jpg

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    When I have to adapt a newer motor to an older machine, I like to just make an adapter plate - that way, I can always go back to the old motor if I can ever get it overhauled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by savage_hunter View Post
    ..don't want to do that because the cast iron pulley has a crack. It's a 3 belt pulley but only using 2 belts (probably because of the crack). I'm worried that if I put a puller on there it would damage it even more so
    Two is probably all you need anyway, but 2 OR 3-row Vee-belt pulleys in cast iron are NOT hard to find.

    The "bushing bore" ones are a (relative) delight to change as well as grip better for far longer shaft & hub lives when used with taperlock or QD shaft adapters, which are also plentiful, NOS.

    After all - most OEM's sourced theirs from Browning, Morse, or TB Woods for CI ones, Congress or Chicago for the ZAMAK die-cast ones, rather than make pulleys in-house, so a "stock" item should just fit.

    See the "Maska" line, as well.

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    {I've been working out of a single bay in a two car garage. Doing any work requires shifting tool boxes and machines around like one of those slide puzzles:}

    That what I feel like when I need to move my wifes car out of the garage so I can get my table saw out or wood planer...

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    I didn't hear any mention of it, so I will ask. Is the motor stalling when you stop the chuck, or is the flat belt slipping?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Two is probably all you need anyway, but 2 OR 3-row Vee-belt pulleys in cast iron are NOT hard to find.

    The "bushing bore" ones are a (relative) delight to change as well as grip better for far longer shaft & hub lives when used with taperlock or QD shaft adapters, which are also plentiful, NOS.

    After all - most OEM's sourced theirs from Browning, Morse, or TB Woods for CI ones, Congress or Chicago for the ZAMAK die-cast ones, rather than make pulleys in-house, so a "stock" item should just fit.

    See the "Maska" line, as well.
    Yes you are correct that finding a replacement pulley would be pretty easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by packrat2 View Post
    {I've been working out of a single bay in a two car garage. Doing any work requires shifting tool boxes and machines around like one of those slide puzzles:}

    That what I feel like when I need to move my wifes car out of the garage so I can get my table saw out or wood planer...
    Yes my wood shop is entirely on wheels. I move the mini van out of the garage and move the wood shop to the driveway (keeps the dust out of the metal shop :p )

    Quote Originally Posted by MrWhoopee View Post
    I didn't hear any mention of it, so I will ask. Is the motor stalling when you stop the chuck, or is the flat belt slipping?

    I should have been more clear. If the belt is on the smallest end of the cone pulley (MAX RPM) the flat belt will spin. If it is on the largest (LOW RPM) the motor will stop and just hum. I can also grab the lead screw and make the motor stop and hum. Probably not good for the motor, but it's not hurting something that already is NFG.


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