Why no love for the 9A- or, Is Bigger Always Better?

Seems the SB 9" lathes "get no respect at all" to quote the funny man...on many online forums.
Referred to as a "little lathe", often in a somewhat demeaning way.

So, is bigger, always better?

I totally GET the mass/weight rigidity argument. But, for someone like myself that does only small work, and doesn't NEED a larger swing over bed- and doesn't NEED to curl a 1/4" chip off a chunk of steel in one pass- what's the disadvantage?

Basically, my question boils down to this...
As long as the limitations of the machine are known- and it's not excessively worn and can cut within acceptable parameters (I guess that depends on the tolerances of the work to be done), why can't a smaller machine do accurate work, with light cuts that don't push it's limits? Even with light cuts, is it inherently less accurate than a machine with greater mass- all other things being equal?

Thanks in advance for the insight.

What causes you to think that there's no love for the 9's? It's the most popular South Bend model, ever, and the most discussed in the SB forum area.

Your basic conclusion is correct for the 9's, and any other machine for that matter. They all work fine within their design parameters. You're not going to tow a backhoe with your Ford Ranger, but your buddy with the F350 probably will. Luckily for you, all you need to haul is a sheet of plywood from the lumber yard.

mdshunk said:

What causes you to think that there's no love for the 9's? It's the most popular South Bend model, ever, and the most discussed in the SB forum area.

Your basic conclusion is correct for the 9's, and any other machine for that matter. They all work fine within their design parameters. You're not going to tow a backhoe with your Ford Ranger, but your buddy with the F350 probably will. Luckily for you, all you need to haul is a sheet of plywood from the lumber yard.

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I know it is, here...
But seems there are a lot of "lathe snobs" (for lack of a better description) I see on other forums that seem to think if you're not running a Monarch EE or something close, well...you're just not "worthy".

tobnpr said:

I know it is, here...
But seems there are a lot of "lathe snobs" (for lack of a better description) I see on other forums that seem to think if you're not running a Monarch EE or something close, well...you're just not "worthy".

Click to expand...

I don't think I'd let the opinion of people that you'll never meet color your feelings. Does your 9 do what you need it to? If the answer is "yes", then I'm not sure why these 'lathe snobs' (never heard of such, myself) would bother you. You might consider mentioning this to your doctor if the opinions of random people on the 'net get you down like this on a regular basis.

I have seen crappy work done on great machines and great work done on crappy machines...

Pound for pound and dollar for dollar it's hard to beat the 9A...not even sure you can.

I frequent about 7 different 'home shop/model engine' type boards. I'd venture to say that 90% of the solid contributors
on those boards, folks who have been in model engineering for decades and who are renowned for their work, have
machines no larger or better than yours. Most of the Brits have Myfords or Boxfords or the odd South Bend even.
Many have newer Chinese machines of various brands. Aussies have the same spread. The whole world wide fraternity of model engineers have little care for what machine a person owns. Rather, they are interested in the work
that's done, the tricks and tips, and the general cameraderie of the the hobby. Sure, they get excited about a real cool
machine or tool! And a bit of envy can be show when one comes up with a real find or rare machine. Hell, we're all
gearheads!

Stay away from those boards where you find that snobbish behavior as a general tone. In my experience they're a waste
of time. The people there aren't interested in sharing a fascinating hobby with others of like minds. They're there to
plump their own egos, chuck their weight around, a denigrate anyone they can. Stick with real people.

If you wish I can post links to the various boards I find worth visiting....

Pete

mdshunk said:

You might consider mentioning this to your doctor if the opinions of random people on the 'net get you down like this on a regular basis.

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That's a hell of a snarky thing to say to a guy who just asked a question.

Folks may talk about their big, powerful lathes, but they don't have the soul of a South Bend. I remember in the 50s when farm implement dealers would put a 9A in the back of a Chevy panel truck, drive out into farm fields and repair machinery on the spot; that's a machine made for a man to do work with. You wouldn't want to run a machine shop today with a SB 9 as your only lathe, but many a locksmith, gunsmith, small engine repairman, and so on think it is an economical, dependable, accurate machine.

Big Gem said:

Folks may talk about their big, powerful lathes, but they don't have the soul of a South Bend. I remember in the 50s when farm implement dealers would put a 9A in the back of a Chevy panel truck, drive out into farm fields and repair machinery on the spot; that's a machine made for a man to do work with. You wouldn't want to run a machine shop today with a SB 9 as your only lathe, but many a locksmith, gunsmith, small engine repairman, and so on think it is an economical, dependable, accurate machine.

Click to expand...

You've got that right! Not everyone has the space, money, or time for a 'big' machine!

Pete

I use my 9" SB Model A more than my 14"LeBlond.

Blob said:

That's a hell of a snarky thing to say to a guy who just asked a question.

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Kinda what I was thinking...

As one that's learning machining, I tried to ask a thoughtful question with the objective of determining if there is anything "to" the often read sentiment that if it's not a two-ton machine, it's not capable of precision work.

Has nothing to do with "getting my feelings hurt", thank you...
I'd rather be asking about tolerances/capabilities of "x" vs. "y", but I realize that we're talking about decades old iron and that's impossible.

However...
I would be interested in knowing- if the information is available- how one of these machines, brand new off the line back in the 50's, would stack up against an import lathe today. Did SB ever publish their tolerances/specs to use as a basis of comparison?

Yes they did, in the form of an inspection card for each machine showing how it measured up compared to their
standards for that model. I don't have one but some of the folks here do.

Also, sblatheman (Ted) would know that information on factory specs, and I suspect that Steve Wells would also.
These lathes were never sold as tenths machines but they were certainly one thou machines!

Pete

tobnpr- sounds to me like you just answered all your own questions. no there is nothing wrong with a 9A as long as you recognize it's limitations. I have one and use it quite often for small bushings, shafts etc, please note the word small. properly set up and if the machine is not totally clapped out it will do work as accurate as you are capable of doing. you don't use a sledge hammer to drive a tack, and you don,t drive a spike with a tack hammer. it's all about application.

Thanks to all for the responses, confirming my thoughts on this.

tobnpr said:

Seems the SB 9" lathes "get no respect at all" to quote the funny man...on many online forums.
Referred to as a "little lathe", often in a somewhat demeaning way.

So, is bigger, always better?

I totally GET the mass/weight rigidity argument. But, for someone like myself that does only small work, and doesn't NEED a larger swing over bed- and doesn't NEED to curl a 1/4" chip off a chunk of steel in one pass- what's the disadvantage?

Basically, my question boils down to this...
As long as the limitations of the machine are known- and it's not excessively worn and can cut within acceptable parameters (I guess that depends on the tolerances of the work to be done), why can't a smaller machine do accurate work, with light cuts that don't push it's limits? Even with light cuts, is it inherently less accurate than a machine with greater mass- all other things being equal?

Thanks in advance for the insight.

Click to expand...

I see I am late to the party.

I got my first lathe in 8th grade, still own it 55 years later, but have it on loan to a friend.
It is an old Barnes lathe a real POS compared to any SB 9" that runs at all.
When I outgrew it, it was due to spindle ID being the limiting factor. I could only get 3/8" bar through.
Looking at available machines, Logans, Atlas and the like with larger spindle ID's, I didn't like the surface finish that was rather inferior to my Barnes lathe.
I finally came across a nice SB 10L that I could afford. It was larger than what I was looking for at the time, but it was in excellent shape and I could get the surface finishes I was used to. The smaller 9" SB's were very pricey at the time.

I got my first (very tired) Monarch EE 14 years ago, it sat for 8+ years before I got it running. I needed the larger capacity and got it running only to find that it gave my 10L serious competition for surface finish. The major negative is it's a larger, heavier machine and a lot more cumbersome compared to the 10L. So it sits most of the time. My second EE (much older and in nicer shape)came home less than 18 hours ago, the first one is going bye bye soon.


The lowly SB 10L is my main lathe, it gets most of the use. I use tooling many "experts" think is way over kill, or that the machine is too inferior to use the tooling to full capacity. I don't think the lathe knows it isn't not supposed to use nice tooling, but keeps making nice parts one after another month after month anyway. Coupled with my "I didn't know I wasn't supposed to be able do THAT with a lowly South Bend" attitude, keeps me chuckling at those that are playing the one ups manship game.

If you are looking for a nice 9" and a 10L in nice shape crosses your path, it may save you from a future upgrade. The spindle tooling is more available, and 5C collets come in a huge variety. Either model is way, way ahead of most of the Asian lathes.

To answer the OP's questions,

I think there is a missing word in "little lathe" making it "nice little lathe". Don't think for a minute that a nice little SB lathe is anything to be looked down at, That "wimpy little slapper belt" has saved many a student from serious harm by slipping before serious damage happens. It also is very smooth and a contributing factor for the nice finishes that can be produced.

So, is bigger, always better? what's the disadvantage? Within the work envelope of a 9" and not being paid by how fast the job can be done, look at the advantages, not the disadvantage.

Just my 2 cents,

Bill

Big Gem said:

Folks may talk about their big, powerful lathes, but they don't have the soul of a South Bend. I remember in the 50s when farm implement dealers would put a 9A in the back of a Chevy panel truck, drive out into farm fields and repair machinery on the spot; that's a machine made for a man to do work with. You wouldn't want to run a machine shop today with a SB 9 as your only lathe, but many a locksmith, gunsmith, small engine repairman, and so on think it is an economical, dependable, accurate machine.

Click to expand...

Last summer I picked up my second 9A at a high school auction. They laughed when I drove up in my Honda accord saying it will never fit in there. "Yes it will", I replied. Sure enough they were able to drop it right in my trunk with room to spare. Countershaft/motor separated of course.

martik777 said:

Last summer I picked up my second 9A at a high school auction. They laughed when I drove up in my Honda accord saying it will never fit in there. "Yes it will", I replied. Sure enough they were able to drop it right in my trunk with room to spare. Countershaft/motor separated of course.

Click to expand...

I'm getting up in years, so I really am not supposed to be lifting anything heavy. I can move a SB 9, 4 ft out of a basement, by myself, in less than a half hour (from experience, a 4-1/2' bed requires help or a dolly). I learned to buy one of those impact screwdrivers from harbor freight for loosening apron screws. I've moved three or four lathes in the past year or two, without any problem. I've never moved more than one at a time, but I believe I would have little trouble putting 2 in the back of my KIA SUV (although the idea of a collision keeps me white-knuckled). Even if the lathe is old, and shimmed, putting it back together again is pretty straightforward. I carry a supply of Ziplock bags so the right hardware is together and labeled.

Just another reason to like the SB.

"I tried to ask a thoughtful question with the objective of determining if there is anything "to" the often read sentiment that if it's not a two-ton machine, it's not capable of precision work.

He wasn't making fun of you for asking the question.

He was making fun of you for asking it in the wrong place!

Asking the SB die-hards around here why nobody likes 9A lathes will only elicit head-scratchin
or stories about how good they really are.

If you want somebody to run down a SB 9A, go over to the Monarch sub-forum and tell 'em
that a 9 inch model A beats a 10EE, hands-down, in all the categories. Then put on yer
nomex undies!

jim rozen said:

"I tried to ask a thoughtful question with the objective of determining if there is anything "to" the often read sentiment that if it's not a two-ton machine, it's not capable of precision work.

He wasn't making fun of you for asking the question.

He was making fun of you for asking it in the wrong place!

Asking the SB die-hards around here why nobody likes 9A lathes will only elicit head-scratchin
or stories about how good they really are.

If you want somebody to run down a SB 9A, go over to the Monarch sub-forum and tell 'em
that a 9 inch model A beats a 10EE, hands-down, in all the categories. Then put on yer
nomex undies!

Click to expand...

Jim...

Totally get it, lol...

I do need to factor in where I'm posting- but figured, I could get some realistic answers, like the one that stated they were suppose to be thousandth machines- not tenths...

I imagine that's where the mass/rigidity advantage comes into play.

Tenths are easy, just grab your file