Wiring help!...PLEASE!
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    Default Wiring help!...PLEASE!

    I have had my southbend for a few years now and I love it. Recently I came across a good deal on a nice metal table, and bigger motor for it. I transferred the lathe, and the new motor is different than my old one.....and the drum switch is different as well. The motor is a Craftsman model 1225. It is currently set up for 110v ( problem #1). I also am using the drum switch from my old motor and thats a Furnace drum switch, now here is the kicker.....most drum switches i see online have 6 terminals....mine has 7....4 on the left and 3 on the right. I did locate a drawing showing how to wire it, but cant figure out how to deal with the top terminal. Also I have followed the directions to convert the motor to run on 220......but what do I do with the 115v capacator thats on it? Disconnect it? Replace it with a 220?

    Please help, I am in over my head here.

    Thanks,
    Rob

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    Does the capacitor say 115V. If it does I would recommend replacing it with the 220V or higher voltage. Unlike relays and motors, a capacitor is rated at maximum voltage. It is okay to run a 220V capacitor on 110V, but not the other way around. Anyway if it's an old motor it's a good idea to change it now, Capacitors do go bad from age. as far as terminals go I can't help you. It might help if you show us a picture of what you have. Someone will be able to help you.

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    Generally a dual voltage motor will have the start winding (and hence the cap) connected to the center tap of the pair of 220v windings, so a 110 cap is just fine.

    You need to show us the wiring diagram of the motor and the switch. Otherwise, it is impossible for us to help you.

    allan

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    I am trying to upload some pictures and having a hard time. The capacitor says 485-540 MFD 110 VAC....I would assume ( and as another member stated ) that is part of my problem.....so I have been online and there are other capacitors.....but would I need the same MFD for 220 or different? I have the drawing for the motor wiring and the drum switch, as soon as I get it uploaded I'm sure it will help.img_20150117_184841_091-1.jpgimg_20150118_103001_188.jpgimg_20150118_190017_002.jpgimg_20150119_095400_592.jpg

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    You can probably get the motor documentation from Sears or find out who the actually manufacturer was and get it from them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tgolden View Post
    You can probably get the motor documentation from Sears or find out who the actually manufacturer was and get it from them.
    The second photo is drawing I found online that shows how to wire the motor I have ( craftsman model 1225) to a drum switch for a lathe. The issue is my drum switch has 7 terminals instead of 6 like the one in the diagram. I also have to figure out if I have to change the capacitor. As you can see in the photo it says its for 110.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dezil View Post
    ...I also have to figure out if I have to change the capacitor. As you can see in the photo it says its for 110.
    That's what the manufacturer's documentation will tell you.

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    Is there a wiring diagram inside the switch cover? If not, can you produce a connection diagram for it using a continuity meter?

    on edit: is there any chance one of the terminals is just to ground the switch case?

    allan

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    Quote Originally Posted by kitno455 View Post
    Is there a wiring diagram inside the switch cover? If not, can you produce a connection diagram for it using a continuity meter?

    on edit: is there any chance one of the terminals is just to ground the switch case?

    allan
    img_20150119_121225_138.jpgimg_20150119_121231_364.jpgimg_20150119_121236_741.jpgimg_20150119_121259_335.jpg

    Here is a pic of the diagram thats inside the switch cover.....I dont know enough about electric to understand any of it. I called sears today, and they told me that motor is a model number 113.12250 and is from 1964.....and thats all they could tell me. Here are some photos of the switch itself. I have googled this a million different ways and they always show a drum switch with three terminals on each side, this one as you can see has four on one side. I tried looking up Furnas Drum Switch and found the same thing. I am so confused.

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    There may be a wiring diagram under the capacitor cover. Have you checked?

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    I have looked there.....nothing.

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    The pictures of the contacts are enough- it looks like a Furnas R1 switch, with one of the contacts missing, and an additional SPDT contact at the bottom. The way it is made, with screws instead of rivets, you could move one of the lower contacts up if we decide you need to.

    The bigger question now is the motor. Craftsman vendor code 113 is Emerson, perhaps that will help.

    allan

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    This is still above my knowledge level. It is definatly a Furnas switch as it says on the cover, but every diagram I look at has only 6 lugs instead of 7 like mine has. I know this switch works, because it ran my lathe with the old motor for as long as I had it, and that top lug was used. img_20150118_103001_188.jpg
    This diagram references the motor by part number, and the motor I have is exactly as shown in the diagram, but how do I get this odd 7 lug drum switch to work with this particular motor? My electrician friend and I were taking some guesses, and at one point it moved as it should in forward and reverse, but extremely slow, and seemed as though something was wrong.

    I stopped at a local HVAC supply house today and asked them about the capacitor. They told me that is just to start it, and it shouldnt really matter what size the capacitor was. Is that true? Should I stop looking for that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dezil View Post
    This is still above my knowledge level. It is definatly a Furnas switch as it says on the cover, but every diagram I look at has only 6 lugs instead of 7 like mine has. I know this switch works, because it ran my lathe with the old motor for as long as I had it, and that top lug was used. img_20150118_103001_188.jpg
    This diagram references the motor by part number, and the motor I have is exactly as shown in the diagram, but how do I get this odd 7 lug drum switch to work with this particular motor? My electrician friend and I were taking some guesses, and at one point it moved as it should in forward and reverse, but extremely slow, and seemed as though something was wrong.

    I stopped at a local HVAC supply house today and asked them about the capacitor. They told me that is just to start it, and it shouldnt really matter what size the capacitor was. Is that true? Should I stop looking for that?
    The Cap is fine, I said so earlier- we are going to run the start winding in parallel with one of the two run windings, but in series with the other, so it will only see 115 volts.

    Instead of showing us a photo of a computer monitor with part of a diagram on it, why don't you show us a link to the pdf. nevermind- I found it: http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/222/576.pdf

    Now, the switch used in that pdf is a Cutler-Hammer style, with a very different internal connection diagram. But, it does demonstrate that your motor is a fairly standard dual voltage motor, which almost follows the nema color scheme- they use green instead of orange for T3.

    Now, why do you need to use 230v? 115 might be easier to connect with this switch.

    allan

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    Ok- assuming that the diagram in that random pdf about an unrelated sears product is correct, here is a wiring diagram that should work.

    craftsman-furnas-s2.jpg

    Here, we tie together the green, white and black in the motor junction box. We only bring out the blue, yellow and red wires to the switch, plus an added ground wire. Note that this is a 230v connection, which switches the red start winding lead from L1 to L2 in order to reverse, while leaving the black start winding lead on the junction between the two run windings. Note also the jumper wire inside the switch, which is required because of that terminal they left out.

    on edit: you should also insulate and ignore the brown wire inside the motor. That comes from the thermal limiter, and is only used for 115 v operation.

    allan
    Last edited by kitno455; 01-20-2015 at 09:50 AM.

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    I apologize for cutting off the side of the diagram, but that is the motor I have, a craftsman 1225. I am using 230 volt because my shop is wired for it, I would like the motor to last longer, and I have always heard that lathes are wired for 230 and up because of the cleanliness of deep cuts.....plus I have no dedicated 115 lines, and I will be blowing breakers like crazy ( already go through that with the chop saw but thats another story).

    Another user here has told me that the answer to wiring the switch is in the diagram on the inside of the switch cover under "split phase" but I dont understand how to read the diagram. With that in mind do you still think the microsoft paint drawing you posted above is accurate?

    Also am I understanding correctly that the green, black and white coming out of the motor are twisted together and capped, and the brown is capped seperatly?

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    The split phase diagram from the switch would work if you were using 115 volts. If you tried to wire that with 230, you would be putting full voltage across your start winding, which will shorten the life of the cap. The drawing I made above should work, assuming that random pdf is accurate.

    allan

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    I agree with kitno445.

    For this conversations sake, 110/220v motors have 3 sets of windings, 1 start, 2 run. For 110v, all 3 are in parallel, so 110v across each. For 220v, the run windings are in series (110+110=220) and the start is in parallel with one of the run windings forward, and the other for reverse. All your switch really does is select which run winding the start winding parallels with. Even then, the start winding only receives power for a split second, then there is an internal switch that causes it to drop out of the circuit once the motor is spinning.

    Since the run windings are in series when setup for 220v, neither sees more than 110v by itself, and by putting the start winding in parallel with ONE of them, it will also not see more than 110v, so there is no need to worry about that 110v capacitor either.

    (A while back I slipped up and told someone to put their start winding in parallel with BOTH run windings, in which case it WOULD have seen 220v, luckily Kitno was there to catch me on it!)

    Kitno...do you remember that thread? By the end of it I was hell bent on proving that you could run a 220v reversing motor grounded with only 4 wires by doing EXACTLY what you are showing up there! (The only hitch is that with a 6 terminal switch you would have to modify the switch jumpers, where his 7 terminal switch is already set up for it.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by freeclimbmtb View Post
    Kitno...do you remember that thread? By the end of it I was hell bent on proving that you could run a 220v reversing motor grounded with only 4 wires by doing EXACTLY what you are showing up there! (The only hitch is that with a 6 terminal switch you would have to modify the switch jumpers, where his 7 terminal switch is already set up for it.)
    I don't recall the details, but I do recall our difference of opinion. I hope that in that thread I did not say that 4 wires was always impossible, only that it was impossible with certain types of motor wiring. In particular, I really hate motors with fancy terminal plates and weird connection diagrams. In a couple of cases, I have ripped those apart and rewired them with nema standard colors and no terminal board, just so I could use a reversing switch. In this case, the motor wiring is not that odd, other than the use of green for T3.

    allan

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    Quote Originally Posted by kitno455 View Post
    I don't recall the details, but I do recall our difference of opinion. I hope that in that thread I did not say that 4 wires was always impossible, only that it was impossible with certain types of motor wiring. In particular, I really hate motors with fancy terminal plates and weird connection diagrams. In a couple of cases, I have ripped those apart and rewired them with nema standard colors and no terminal board, just so I could use a reversing switch. In this case, the motor wiring is not that odd, other than the use of green for T3.

    allan
    Agreed (about the terminal boards, now that I have a better understanding of both the motors and the switches, I would almost certainly strip all that garbage right out of them in the future). It allows the motor manufacturer to provide a simple product to the end-user. "For 110v, use this config. For 220v, move these two tabs. To reverse direction, swap these leads." They don't have a reversing switch in mind most of the time, plus 90% of us are buying used equipment with no manual and a label plate that's half rubbed off and a switch that came out of a shop setup for 3 phase...


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