WW II Pearl Harbor SB 10L way markings
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  1. #1
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    Default WW II Pearl Harbor SB 10L way markings

    We have an old SB 10” lathe at the Hawaii Railway Society that has some strange markings on the bed that we would like to decifer. Basically this lathe was surplussed out of the Pearl Harbor naval shipyard machine shop, a loong time ago. New in 1942 and donated to the HRS sometime in the past 30 years. We know the Lathe came from the Pearl Harbor machine shop, but all the records of its war service disappeared long ago. Hoping someone on PM might know what the stampings indicate.

    Here’s some identifying info:

    Model: SB 10L - 3 1/2’ bed, with taper attachment. Motor and belt drive mounted in the cabinet, below the headstock

    Catalog number : 8187Z
    SN: 135111.

    Now the unusual USN stampings include the Navy Anchor insignia, and the abbreviations L.O.R. and W.E.F. on the way, just to the right of the SB SN. Also “MA E127” shows on the right rear flat portion of the bed. Wondering if MA stands for a Marine Corp inventory number?

    I’ve attached a couple of photos showing the lathe and markings in its current condition. Still doing yeoman service, although finishing its days in our RR museum backshops at Ewa Beach.

    As we are an interpretive museum, anything we might find out about the lathes war service would enhance its interpretive value as a working machine tool.

    Thanks much for any thoughts you all might have.87813ac9-ff34-4f32-a2a9-8d701945c4fd.jpgbd475bd3-67d1-4706-bcdf-eabc9a73735c.jpg6f9d0d3d-8c47-491c-8888-ae36ec2dfd10.jpg

    Glenn

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    you might peruse this list-

    US Navy Abbreviations of World War II

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    Not definitive but just about all US military stuff has the initials of an inspector or two. I'm assuming that L.O.R. and W.E.F. are the inspectors. For things like rifles manufactured by the US Arsenals (Springfield, Rock Island) and the contractors (Remington, Winchester, etc) the inspectors and their years of service are well known to the arms guys. Perhaps the local Pearl Harbor historical society has the documentation identifying the WW2 era inspectors at the base.

    John

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    The right rear area of a South Bend bed is usually where the 'unit code' is located, so 'MA E127' may be a unit code. My SB 13" has 'DDB 102G' in this area.

    My other early 1950's era SB 13" was also a Navy baby:

    100_8684.jpg

    John
    Last edited by comstockfriend; 02-15-2020 at 01:53 PM. Reason: Not a WW2 lathe but early 50's

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    Also my Pratt Whitney milling machine:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn Brooks View Post
    We have an old SB 10” lathe at the Hawaii Railway Society that has some strange markings on the bed that we would like to decifer. Basically this lathe was surplussed out of the Pearl Harbor naval shipyard machine shop, a loong time ago. New in 1942 and donated to the HRS sometime in the past 30 years. We know the Lathe came from the Pearl Harbor machine shop, but all the records of its war service disappeared long ago. Hoping someone on PM might know what the stampings indicate.

    Here’s some identifying info:

    Model: SB 10L - 3 1/2’ bed, with taper attachment. Motor and belt drive mounted in the cabinet, below the headstock

    Catalog number : 8187Z
    SN: 135111.

    Now the unusual USN stampings include the Navy Anchor insignia, and the abbreviations L.O.R. and W.E.F. on the way, just to the right of the SB SN. Also “MA E127” shows on the right rear flat portion of the bed. Wondering if MA stands for a Marine Corp inventory number?

    I’ve attached a couple of photos showing the lathe and markings in its current condition. Still doing yeoman service, although finishing its days in our RR museum backshops at Ewa Beach.

    As we are an interpretive museum, anything we might find out about the lathes war service would enhance its interpretive value as a working machine tool.

    Thanks much for any thoughts you all might have.87813ac9-ff34-4f32-a2a9-8d701945c4fd.jpgbd475bd3-67d1-4706-bcdf-eabc9a73735c.jpg6f9d0d3d-8c47-491c-8888-ae36ec2dfd10.jpg

    Glenn
    Glenn,
    I also posted this on the [email protected] for you. The lathe was shipped in 1943.

    Copy of old post on the subject:

    In the serial number file, which I am always several years behind on, I only
    list the information I am provided with. The posts with my personal opinions
    are also kind of old when we were first chatting about the stamps. My
    opinions are subject to change…lol, and I have flipped flopped somewhat on
    this subject in regards to the JAN stamp, which would/could appear to be a
    military spec stamp. Inspectors at the military arms or provision suppliers,
    used their initials. The inspectors could be military or military employed
    civilian, not important, the point is they are inspection and acceptance
    stamps. See info below.

    It is well known that SBL was a major machine supplier with the Navy.

    Listed Inspection stamps found on SBL machines:

    AROTUL USA, DPC 10
    DWW, JFP
    D.W.W, W.E.F
    D.W.W. , F.W.M
    D.W.W & J.F.P. U.S.N. Property
    D.W.W. , J.F.P. USA-HEW, Defense Plant Corporation tags for Boeing Corp
    D.W.W., US, navy stamp (ANCHOR)
    D.W.W., D.R.M, US, navy stamp (ANCHOR)
    FWM
    JAN
    JAN, JOD
    JBL
    J.B.R
    JFP
    JFP, DWW
    JFP, LOR & Flaming Bomb
    LQR
    LOR, JAN
    LOR, JOD
    L.O.R., J.F.N., US, navy stamp (ANCHOR)
    LOR, JFP
    WEF
    WBL, DETRO DPC T 505
    US 47, J.A.N
    Property of USAF 875747

    Web search Info found on Inspector stamps:

    For Sale: Oficial U.S. Navy inspector's hammer with dies at each end. The
    large die is 1 3/16" W x 1 6/16" H. The small die is 9/16" W x 9/16" H. The
    mark stamped on an item indicated it has passed inspection.

    It is reported by companies that made these items during WW II, that the
    inspectors kept these tools under lock and key, and that they never had
    access to them. At the end of the War, when the inspectors left the plants,
    this tool went with them

    JAN = joint Army-Navy [specification]

    Inspection and acceptance marks:
    The US Navy 'Anchor' stamp indicated the item had been inspected and
    accepted by the US Navy.
    The U.S. Navy's inspector's mark -- the initials "U S" with a small anchor
    between

    Small arms of the United States Army and Navy bear an initial or initials
    which are called inspector’s marks. These marks appear on stocks, grips or
    metal parts. Some arms, especially older ones, have more than one inspector’s
    initial or initials.

    The Army and Navy purchased arms from commercial outlets and also contracted
    directly with the manufacturers. The Navy also purchased some arms from the
    Army. From the early days of 1831, most small arms contract inspectors were
    civilians or Springfield Armory employees. Officers who served as inspectors
    were from the Army Ordnance Department or the Navy Bureau of Ordnance. There
    were also sub-inspectors who had regular jobs at Springfield Armory, and
    small arms inspection was in addition to their regular duties. Army or Navy
    inspectors had control over all sub-inspectors.

    It must be noted that in some cases, these inspectors are civilian
    personnel. Others will be military personnel

    Initials Name, Title Period

    SPS Sidney P. Spaulding, Lt. Col., USA- 1940
    RS Robert Sears, Col., USA- 1940-45
    MS Maurice Sherman, Armory S-l- 1940
    LAS Laurence A. Stone, Lt., USA- 1940
    GHS Gilbert H. Stewart, Col., USA- 1938-40
    CES Clarence E. Simpson, Armory S-l- 1939
    ECP Edward C. Perry, Armor) S-l- 1937-40
    WCO Warren C. Odell, Armory S-l- 1939
    RSJ Robert S. Johnson, Armory S-l- 1940
    SLG Sidney L. Gibson, Lt., USA- 1941
    SGG Samuel G. Green, Lt. Col., USA- 1939
    JKC John K. Christmas, Lt. Col., USA- 1942
    JJC John J. Callahan, Armory S-l- 1940
    AC Alexander Cameron, Armory S-l-940
    WAB William A. Borden, Lt. Col., USA 1936-39
    WB Waldemar Broberg, Col., USA- 1941
    JAB John A. Brooks, Jr.., Lt. Col., USA- 1940
    FJA Frank 1. Atwood, Lt. Col., USA- 1943-45



    Steve Wells
    The SBL Workshop
    The SBL Workshop

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    So Steve, looks like we have a new line for the list:

    L.O.R., W.E.F.., US, navy stamp (ANCHOR)

    Thanks for the re-post!

    My US Anchor marked 13" (3127TKL10) was early 1950's, not WW2 as I said:

    8/19/1952 3054 TKL10
    ------------- 3127 TKL10
    7/22/1953 3718 TKL10

    No inspectors' marks noted...

    John

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    Steve,

    I made a mistake in my first post, regarding the Hawaii Railway Society SB 10L lathe, (SN: 135111).

    The inspectors initials stamped on the lathe are L.Q.R - not “L.O.R.” as first mentioned. the second set of initials “W.E.F” are correct, as first mentioned. I thought I went back and corrected this in my post, but apparently not.


    So the correct full line of data, adjacent to the SB SN, for the lathe should be:

    USN (anchor stamp) followed by L.Q.R. and W.E.F.

    Thanks
    Glenn B.

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    Thanks Glenn,
    I think all the ones that have LOR are really LQR

    Steve

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    Aloha Glenn, Its really great to see your post here. I also have a pearl harbor lathe that was sold to the public sometime in the early 70's and I acquired it last year for my personal use. I wish I could help you with markings but mine was ordered by Raritan Arsenal in 1941 and then must have been re-routed to Pearl Harbor to help with the rebuild after the attack! So mine is marked with some different things.

    I wonder if ours worked together in a shop out here? Mine has a 2" high yellow stencil that was painted on the gear cover and also on the top of the belt pulley cover that is the number 1008. I was wondering if yours has such a stencil? The one on the top was painted over with black paint at some point in the past but I can still see it.

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    Aloha Kevin, great to hear from you. In answer to your question, our lathe does not have the marking you describe. But anything is possible given how small PH is... the Railway society equipment all came from the Lualualei ammunition depot out in Makaha around 1971. In fact one of our existing mainline locos was the last locomotive to transport 16” battleship shells to the dock, before motorized transport was used. We received 5 locomotives, many, many box cars and rolling stock, and all sorts of spares at the end. basically everything that was left from the Naval Railway service on Oahu, when the Navy quit the railroad business in favor of ammo transport by wheeled vehicle. So one theory is that the lathe was part of the last remaining NAvy RR operation. That was 1970ish. But the lathe was first shipped under Navy contract in 1943, so first duty station? Who knows. I’ve ordered the SB production card from Grizzly. But it hasn’t arrived yet.

    So far still haven’t got any leads on the mysterious unit designations stamped on all these machines. Can’t imagine the list doesn’t exist. Clearly someone had to assign the number codes in the first place. But nothing shows up at all on the Internet, or on the WW2 history boards. Deep mystery to be sure.

    Iam at the Railway at Ewa Beach each Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday, if you would like to stop by and take a look at the lathe, or just compare notes. These are our volunteer days in the backshops. Slots of interesting stuff to see if you like narrow gauge railroading...or just want to hang out and work on trains.

    Cheers,
    Glenn

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn Brooks View Post
    Aloha Kevin, great to hear from you. In answer to your question, our lathe does not have the marking you describe. But anything is possible given how small PH is... the Railway society equipment all came from the Lualualei ammunition depot out in Makaha around 1971. In fact one of our existing mainline locos was the last locomotive to transport 16” battleship shells to the dock, before motorized transport was used. We received 5 locomotives, many, many box cars and rolling stock, and all sorts of spares at the end. basically everything that was left from the Naval Railway service on Oahu, when the Navy quit the railroad business in favor of ammo transport by wheeled vehicle. So one theory is that the lathe was part of the last remaining NAvy RR operation. That was 1970ish. But the lathe was first shipped under Navy contract in 1943, so first duty station? Who knows. I’ve ordered the SB production card from Grizzly. But it hasn’t arrived yet.

    So far still haven’t got any leads on the mysterious unit designations stamped on all these machines. Can’t imagine the list doesn’t exist. Clearly someone had to assign the number codes in the first place. But nothing shows up at all on the Internet, or on the WW2 history boards. Deep mystery to be sure.

    Iam at the Railway at Ewa Beach each Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday, if you would like to stop by and take a look at the lathe, or just compare notes. These are our volunteer days in the backshops. Slots of interesting stuff to see if you like narrow gauge railroading...or just want to hang out and work on trains.

    Cheers,
    Glenn
    Thanks for the offer Glenn. I don't spend too much time out on that side of the island but the offer is great. If I get in that area when you're around I will look you up. I heard that my lathe was part of a large public auction where they brought all the machines to one place and invited the public to buy them. All I recall from the conversation was that they were brought to a dock area. I will try to find out more. The man I bought it from got ti from his Dad who was the purchaser at the time.


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