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WTB small milling vice
- Thread starter setlab
- Start date
- Replies 19
- Views 3,255
lectrician1
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2012
- Location
- Las Vegas
look on ebay. they have nice import 4" vises for under $100 delivered. I bought a couple of the 6" swivel type imports and i was impressed with the quality and price.
thermite
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2011
Horizontal mills do not often use a vise unless/until they gain an adapted vertical milling head.
Consider - the forces and power at the milling cutter can be higher than they are for a larger vertical mill. Ex: A Burke #4 is smaller than your one, but has about double the power of a Bridgeport. Yet there is far less room on its tiny table for a vise even half as large. A half-size vise has less holding power. That will be seriously limiting.
Do you have a clamp set? Those can work better.
Did not know that, this is my first horizontal mill but I do have a bunch of t slot clamps. When I bought it there was an angle plate on the table, do a lot of guys just indicate a plate like that and clamp to it?
Will be interesting to use, I'm waiting on its paint to dry at the moment though. Has a NO3 Morse taper and looks like it can put out some serious power for its size.
Will be interesting to use, I'm waiting on its paint to dry at the moment though. Has a NO3 Morse taper and looks like it can put out some serious power for its size.
thermite
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2011
The vast majority of horizontal mill tasking I have done was clamped directly to the table. Now and then vee-blocks were needed or blocking to elevate or angle a workpiece.
One has to consider thrust along the axis of table vs cutter travel, each flute or tooth a min-hammer-blow, and insure your setup prevents the work being shifted by the accumulated effects of that.
Quite often, the cut will not have much height above the table's surface even when you have daylight to spare, because the part itself is not thick nor tall, so it needs full-length support where where isn't a lot of space for clamping. Mitee-bites or equivalent are nice to have. Look up "toe clamps" in general as well. Horizontals share many of their clamping techniques with planers and shapers.
WHEN.. you actually DO find a vise is a good fit to the need? It will often be as a pair. Or even more than two.
Otherwise, the simpler the setup, the more direct the coupling to the table, the lower the profile and the fewer "middlemen" bits and pieces. the stiffer the location and the better the outcome.
You'll need to "get your head around" a horizontal, as to visualizing because much of where it works is not in direct line of sight. The human must adapt where the mill cannot.
MASTER a horizontal mill - you are a mill hand. Verticals are then just "desert".
Master a horizontal boring mill? God may even ask your advice now and then.
JohnMartin
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2006
- Location
- Cumberland, Maine
I don’t generally disagree with Thermite because he’s right much more often than not, but by all means get a vise. Just a guess, but I’d say that well over half of the setups I do on the horizontal mill use the vise.
One of your first decisions, though, will involve spindle tooling. End mill holders or collet chucks vs. milling arbors. End mills are cheap, but you’ll be working where the sun don’t shine and relying on a mirror or craning your neck around. On the plus side, the setup will be extremely rigid and you can usually rely on the vise keys without tramming. I more often use the old-fashioned wheel type milling cutters mounted on an arbor. They are quite expensive new, but you can often find them cheap used. You’ll probably need a few different sized arbors, though.
One of your first decisions, though, will involve spindle tooling. End mill holders or collet chucks vs. milling arbors. End mills are cheap, but you’ll be working where the sun don’t shine and relying on a mirror or craning your neck around. On the plus side, the setup will be extremely rigid and you can usually rely on the vise keys without tramming. I more often use the old-fashioned wheel type milling cutters mounted on an arbor. They are quite expensive new, but you can often find them cheap used. You’ll probably need a few different sized arbors, though.
thermite
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2011
I have the OEM one for the Burke. Small. It fits. But also a damned poor example of whatever it was it had set out to become.
Now.... over on the very much larger table of the "Quartet"? I can easily line up all five Gerardi Modulars.
++
SMALL Horizontals, one can generally just move a step and lay an eyeball on 'em from the side or even "back".
Now .. tooling... 3 MT gets you a LOT of easy "stuff" but.. it isn't a good taper for milling use, as it wants to walk out under side-loading and the repetitive impact from flutes or cutter teeth.
That "war" was fought-out in the late 1800's, with B&S taper the proven winner for mills, MT for drills, and B&S own Oscar Beale pushing "jarno" as an even better one for both, plus lathes, but not winning adoption much anywhere but a few lathe HS spindles.
What this "USUALLY" means in practice is that your 3 MT goods will need tails threaded for your drawbar. LARGER MT were used on horizontal boring mills and had a slot for a locking "key". One of my drill press has the same on its 5 MT. I haven't seen those on 3 MT, so if they exist, they could be rare, expensive, or both.
The "good news" is that these 3 MT goods are still readily available new, while #7 B&S and # 9 B&S are near-as-dammit extinct, new.
More good news is that there are thread-in tangs for MT tails so you can use them on lathe or DP as well as the mill.
Arbors - as John mentioned - should be among the first items you try to collect. "Patience" and you can find them without spending a fortune.
Best all-around for any endmills you may want to use are solid 3 MT side-lock or "Weldon style" holders.
Collets exist for native 3 MT. I have the 9 B&S equivalents. Also ER 20 and ER 40. I try HARD to not use collets on a mill. They are not immune to an endmill MOVING. Pushback is usually harmless, so - Sod's Law - it seldom happens.
Pull-out usually scraps the work and busts the endmill, so - Lybarger's Corollary to Sod's Law "You lose" - it DOES happen.
Another more-than-just-nice-to-have capability would be 2 or 3 shell or face mill cutter arbors.
Folks jump on buying drill chucks for mills. Mixed bag. One surely should never use a drill chuck to grip an endmill, but...
Collets can be waay better than a chuck for drilling.
The "very big deal" - especially on a mill this small - is that they don't need as much "daylight" the LENGTH an Albrecht or even Jacobs-style chuck needs.
Bottom Line - a cheap start to tooling for temporary "all around" coverage:
- At least one arbor WITH "spacers" AND a running bushing if your mill's over-arm uses those, (hole in it with a bearing) ELSE provision for a centre. A "stub" MT 2 was common in overarms.
- An ER 40 or ER 32 on 3 MT tail with a "set" of ER collets. CNC industry has made these the cheapest because they are so widely used.
With a full mm of range, each ER collet, a set will cover from just above "zero" to the max for that ER family.
Look it up, as the number, such as "40" is not the max diameter. It is the length of the collet in mm. Only Rego-Fix knows why, as it isn't much use, as numbers go.
Burke sold a small vise for their horizontal mills and it was quite common. Good to orientate the jaws perpendicular to the cutter though. Go with a small machinist vise I hear the import quality is very good thes days. Something like this with the slots in the side will work well.
Precise Precision Screwless Vise 3" x 7"
Look around for size, price and quality that fits your need. These are everywhere.
Precise Precision Screwless Vise 3" x 7"
Look around for size, price and quality that fits your need. These are everywhere.
JohnMartin
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2006
- Location
- Cumberland, Maine
My horizontal is a Heald, 40 NMTB spindle. Pretty solid. Only real negative is that it uses a step pulley system rather than a gearbox for the table feed, so you can’t switch the feed direction.
My collet chucks are TG100, which I feel is a much better system than the ER. But I haven’t seen these with Morse shanks. The TG collets in the common end mill sizes are available in a “No Pull” style, which has a plug that engages the Weldon flat and absolutely prevents the end mill from being pulled out or sucked in. Can’t use the NP style on one without the flats, though.
End mill holders are a must, as they will allow you to get closer than with the collet chuck. The best ones will have set screws sized to the Weldon flats so that the end mill will be locked in both directions.
Arbors with pilots and/or running bushings, but you’ll need overarm supports for each different pilot or running bushing size. Or a large one with reducers. Stub arbors are handy.
Boring heads, drill chucks, shell mill arbors. A faceplate that will attach to your spindle or to a shell mill arbor will allow you to swing a piece much larger than you likely can do on your lathe. I’ve even got a dedicated fly cutter that takes about a 3/4” tool bit. Don’t use it often, but....
And then we have the table fixturing. Vises - standard, two-piece, tilting, universal. Dividing heads and tailstocks. Angle plates, fixed and adjustable. Rotary tables.
IIRC, I paid about $300 for the mill with vise. The rest of the stuff I’m almost afraid to add up. Feel like that frog in the pot being very slowly brought up to a boil.
John
My collet chucks are TG100, which I feel is a much better system than the ER. But I haven’t seen these with Morse shanks. The TG collets in the common end mill sizes are available in a “No Pull” style, which has a plug that engages the Weldon flat and absolutely prevents the end mill from being pulled out or sucked in. Can’t use the NP style on one without the flats, though.
End mill holders are a must, as they will allow you to get closer than with the collet chuck. The best ones will have set screws sized to the Weldon flats so that the end mill will be locked in both directions.
Arbors with pilots and/or running bushings, but you’ll need overarm supports for each different pilot or running bushing size. Or a large one with reducers. Stub arbors are handy.
Boring heads, drill chucks, shell mill arbors. A faceplate that will attach to your spindle or to a shell mill arbor will allow you to swing a piece much larger than you likely can do on your lathe. I’ve even got a dedicated fly cutter that takes about a 3/4” tool bit. Don’t use it often, but....
And then we have the table fixturing. Vises - standard, two-piece, tilting, universal. Dividing heads and tailstocks. Angle plates, fixed and adjustable. Rotary tables.
IIRC, I paid about $300 for the mill with vise. The rest of the stuff I’m almost afraid to add up. Feel like that frog in the pot being very slowly brought up to a boil.
John
jim rozen
Diamond
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2004
- Location
- peekskill, NY
The vast majority of horizontal mill tasking I have done was clamped directly to the table.
Folks that have only horizontals, and use them for small part machining, use a vise. He's probably in this catagory.
Hardinge routinely fitted their UM miller with a small vise. Those are scare and expensive. Pratt and Whitney, likewise
always had a tiny vise to go with their no. 3 horizontal miller. Even more expensive, and much more scarce. (it fits
the reverse dovetail table on those machines.
A very good inexpesive work around for those who cannot afford the unobtainum parts, is a small import swivel vise
branded by Wilton:
And yes, for the record, there is a vertical head fitted in that photo.
I was lucky to get a few arbors and some end mill holders with it. Even a really old indexer so I'm mostly set there. I don't have many cutters for the arbor yet though but that's something I can do with what I have for awhile. I have access to a bridgeport and most of my basic milling will be on it yet. I couldn't pass up the opportunity to get a small machine, I'll be moving a couple more times in a few years and it's nice to have something small and portable.
Jim Caudill
Stainless
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2002
- Location
- Dayton, Oh
I think I have a smaller vise that came with a Hardinge TM/UM horizontal mill. I live in Fairborn, Oh. If you are seriously interested, send me a PM and I will look for it and we can go from there.
thermite
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2011
Dunno if it was luck ... or curse..
..but my Burke is #9 B&S spindle, and so is the vertical head on the Quartet combo mill (Horizontal is 40-taper..).
Naturlich.. I went on a #9 B&S "grab it while you can still find any" acquisition spree.
Well-tooled, now... but.. that mitigates against giving all that up for an all 40-taper shop, far the more sensible situation, actually.
Presuming the BeePee is only R8, close to # SEVEN B&S in grip and support, your 3 MT doesn't actually take second-place to it for hauling a cutter. Table traverse is a whole 'nuther story, of course!
For small milling, a vise will be useful. You're not going to be milling a cylinder head in a vise.
There are some decent import vises, but depending on where you are and some luck, you may be able to find a used Kurt vise, which is arguably the best milling vise out there (yes there are Glacern vises, but you're less likely to snag a good used one on craiglist).
The 4" vise is 12" long and 6" wide. It opens a little less than 4" and that 4" is roughly centered between the hold down bolts, so the work will be pretty centered on your table. It will probably stick and inch or two off the table on the column side, assuming you bolt it to the center of the table.
The bolt slots are 5-1/4" center to center, so if you have slots at that spacing, you can turn it 90 degrees without using a swivel base. That will allow the forces to go against the fixed jaw, which is the most rigid setup.
The D60 vise is 17" long 9" wide, so is likely too large for your mill table.
There are 3" and 5" Kurt vices (I have a pair of each), but they are hard to find (they have been out of production for years) and can go for a lot of change when you do find them.
There are some decent import vises, but depending on where you are and some luck, you may be able to find a used Kurt vise, which is arguably the best milling vise out there (yes there are Glacern vises, but you're less likely to snag a good used one on craiglist).
The 4" vise is 12" long and 6" wide. It opens a little less than 4" and that 4" is roughly centered between the hold down bolts, so the work will be pretty centered on your table. It will probably stick and inch or two off the table on the column side, assuming you bolt it to the center of the table.
The bolt slots are 5-1/4" center to center, so if you have slots at that spacing, you can turn it 90 degrees without using a swivel base. That will allow the forces to go against the fixed jaw, which is the most rigid setup.
The D60 vise is 17" long 9" wide, so is likely too large for your mill table.
There are 3" and 5" Kurt vices (I have a pair of each), but they are hard to find (they have been out of production for years) and can go for a lot of change when you do find them.
Did the same for B&S 7. Have enough to do just about anything I need with my M-head.
Steve
James H Clark
Stainless
- Joined
- May 11, 2011
- Location
- southern in.
Setlab: What size are your arbors. Horizontal mill cutters are usually at give-away prices when you find then. Since you have a small horizontal, I assume maybe 3/4" or so.
on edit: This time I agree with Thermite, in that mostly, you won't need a vise. i have spent quite a bit of time on horizontals and rarely used a vise on them. We had universal heads for them and only then, would we sometimes need a vise. This is an unusual situation, me agreeing with Thermite.
JH
I need to look again, but I have 2 maybe 3/4" arbors and a larger one, maybe a 1" or 1.5" and then I have I think 4 end mill holders going up to 3/4", a devider head, and a handful of Mt3 shank mills that came with it.
I just put a fresh coat of paint on it after getting a little carried away with cleaning it up. Here's a before picture, started blowing the dirt off with an air gun and 80% of the paint came off. The machined surfaces look practically unused!
looks pretty rough there but it looks almost new now.
I just put a fresh coat of paint on it after getting a little carried away with cleaning it up. Here's a before picture, started blowing the dirt off with an air gun and 80% of the paint came off. The machined surfaces look practically unused!
looks pretty rough there but it looks almost new now.
thermite
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2011
To be fair... it is ALSO driven by the mill under discussion, this thread, being so danged SMALL as well as "horizontal"
Tedious to fit a vise onto the tiny one-tee-slot "universal" table of my Burke #4. Didn't have much "daylight" above the table to begin with, so the "universal' mount, plus the factory OEM vise - on a swivel base, yet.. eats more than it earns.
At the "other end" of the Burke/USMT tribe, size and shape-wise?
5,000 lbs-plus of "Quartet" combo mill can host a whole clan of vises, side-by-side - and still have lots of workspace under either its horizontal or vertical spindles.
That said, it was on "adequate" and far more common mills - B&S #0 thru ponderous K&T's with 60" or so tables - I was taught to clamp, leave the vise vice to others.
Unless, or course, one was MAKING a vise.
Which I recommend, this case, as a worthy project, GOOD small ones being rather pricey, and Kurt not the only player, nor design philosophy:
StandarFLEX Vises - Gerardi SPA
... and whether for use on the mill that made it, OR "general-purpose".
jim rozen
Diamond
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2004
- Location
- peekskill, NY
thermite
Diamond
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2011
As with your perpetually buggered use of PM's quoting tools, some question whom copied whom, Burke dating as it does from 1903. The first of more than one novation/resuscitation.
We digress.
There ain't a hill of beans in difference between the Whitney, Burke #4, or Hardinge T(U|M) lines (nor Nichols, Diamond, ... Barker might be "micro"? ..) as to claiming "small horizontal mill" as a tribe or clan.
For verticals OTOH - any size - a vise is more than just "handy". It is near-as-dammit ESSENTIAL.
