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  1. #61
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    Hi Psycho, thanks for the pics. I'm just a novice at all this, I'm wondering how you will be loading and unloading the large items into these machines, trolley crane, etc ? Thanks, Mark

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    The wash down is really just a "wet" down sadly.... Toyoda and I are working on this. The pumps aren't good enough in both volume and pressure to keep the chips flowing. It has a decent number of nozzles and placement for pinch points but it needs far more than what it has. So we're working on different pumps, changing nozzles, and adding more nozzles for the flush system. Couple that with the auger problem, it makes a hell of a mess. Check out the picture.. We've already blown the Y axis cover to hell and swapped it. Changing this thing is about a serious design issue as well and I've noted it for Toyoda.

    Your TSC coolant... I take it you have a factory set up with the pump in the machine tank? Yep, that makes the level really particular. Our TSC is seperate with its own tank so the level has to be pretty low in the main tank for ours not to work. We've used it with everything on and haven't had any problems with low coolant.

    I can change to a different pitch auger but thats only part of the problem. I've got machines 1/4 this size that can move more volume. We calculated the auger volume and its way below what it needs to be at.

    6 cubes per horse? Isnt' the standard? That's depends on how you're calculating for HP. I know what you mean though. No.. I haven't pushed it there yet. I'm sure the machine can run that... it just can't get rid of it right now. We'll see as this is work in progress...

    Mark, right now we're using a forklift and boom to load. I'm still putting this shop together so not alot here to work with. We are looking to have a FMS installed for these (pallet line). Toyoda doesn't have one for these though and so we're in design mode right now with them. This will be awhile so I'll probably install gantry cranes over them in the meantime.

    Another big bummer is... the tables don't turn out in the loading area! What a surprise that was. Makes loading tombstone set ups a big PITA! Which is why we're using a boom to get to the otherside.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails y-cover-3.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by psychomill View Post
    The wash down is really just a "wet" down sadly.... Toyoda and I are working on this. The pumps aren't good enough in both volume and pressure to keep the chips flowing. It has a decent number of nozzles and placement for pinch points but it needs far more than what it has. So we're working on different pumps, changing nozzles, and adding more nozzles for the flush system. Couple that with the auger problem, it makes a hell of a mess. Check out the picture.. We've already blown the Y axis cover to hell and swapped it. Changing this thing is about a serious design issue as well and I've noted it for Toyoda.

    Your TSC coolant... I take it you have a factory set up with the pump in the machine tank? Yep, that makes the level really particular. Our TSC is seperate with its own tank so the level has to be pretty low in the main tank for ours not to work. We've used it with everything on and haven't had any problems with low coolant.

    I can change to a different pitch auger but thats only part of the problem. I've got machines 1/4 this size that can move more volume. We calculated the auger volume and its way below what it needs to be at.

    6 cubes per horse? Isnt' the standard? That's depends on how you're calculating for HP. I know what you mean though. No.. I haven't pushed it there yet. I'm sure the machine can run that... it just can't get rid of it right now. We'll see as this is work in progress...

    Mark, right now we're using a forklift and boom to load. I'm still putting this shop together so not alot here to work with. We are looking to have a FMS installed for these (pallet line). Toyoda doesn't have one for these though and so we're in design mode right now with them. This will be awhile so I'll probably install gantry cranes over them in the meantime.

    Another big bummer is... the tables don't turn out in the loading area! What a surprise that was. Makes loading tombstone set ups a big PITA! Which is why we're using a boom to get to the otherside.
    That Y axis cover looks like a treat!

    You could always just remove the augers, make your coolant tank bigger, and put 1 fire hose of coolant flowing down each auger trough at 30mph. I think it's going to take a miracle to get that volume of chips out of the work zone.

    When I look at this picture....


    .....my subconscious mind sees a 500 or 630mm size machine. It's hard to wrap my head around the fact that the pallet in that picture is 50 inches across, and the base of the table is over 5 feet wide. You shoulda tossed your kid in there for a size reference!

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    psycomill,

    The coolant issue......

    Brinkmann is your friend. Serious coolant movement if you want, at reasonable pricing. Go with the screw impeller units, they last forever. We use the STA's...
    http://www.brinkmann-pumpen.de/us_en...0Hz/index.html
    Flows up to 660 gal/min with a 300 ft head.

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    Wow ! that's alot of flow ! What is the total orfice size of all the spray units ? 660 gallons per minute---------- that's alot of fluid, what type of system capacity does that equate to ? System Psi ?

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    maybe I just have never been on a machine as good as this one. Nice one Psychomill!

    What I want to ask about it HP v Speed. Machines I have been on might have been able to push more but loading up the depth of cut started burning tools. So could slow them down and shift metal that way which has sometimes been really good. Just anecdotal stuff that if you increase the DOC effectively you end up with a slower cutting speed. Machine rigidity and quality of material might be issues affecting the outcome. Does this sound right to you? I am interested as there is the old school manner of getting on big heavy cuts with the biggest tool you can drive, compared to the "new" High Speed Machining idea where it is all really high speeds and feeds and lighter cuts. I did see a post from one guy you said he had gone to a smaller tool and was shifting more metal and getting longer tool life.

    It seems there are some stories out there. Always happy to hear what results others are getting.

    Stephen

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Leigh View Post
    Wow ! that's alot of flow ! What is the total orfice size of all the spray units ? 660 gallons per minute---------- that's alot of fluid, what type of system capacity does that equate to ? System Psi ?
    If you go to the link, and click on one of the model numbers, you will get a flow/pressure chart. We use the STA303 and STA306 models on all of our machines (even on the Mazaks) as we have standardized to these 2 pump models. Most of our machines are plumbed to be able to disperse about 40-50 gal/min in coolant over the various outlets (depending on the machine). The 303 (2 hp) will run about 35 PSI at 40 gal/min while the 306 (3.5 hp) will put out a bit over 60 psi at 50 gal/min.
    At 660 gal/min on that big unit (29 hp), pressure is only going to be a few psi, but at 350 gal/min, you have right at 80 psi.

    For the 303 and 306 units, we have 70 or 110 gallon tanks on the machines. The Mazaks (303's) are a bit less, probably 50 gallon, but we aren't running 40 gal/min on them either, based on the pressure chart, we are running about 20 gal / min as we see about 45 psi.

    Brinkmann really knows their stuff when it comes to moving coolant.

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    Oh, and while on this subject, why do machine tool builders (all brands) not put much thought into chip control and movement? This is a recurring problem on a number of machines. We've worked closely with another mtb over the years to drastically improve the chip (and coolant) control/handling, but it was a struggle at times. Seems it's an afterthought for most of them.

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    Tony, thanks for the Brinkman link... been there, done that and they are kick ass stuff. On this one though, we're working with Toyoda to sort it out. The machine is so new that there will be alot of changes and retrofits before this machine design "stabilizes". Toyoda wants to correct and improve all of the issues and that is a plus for them.

    Joe, that picture is only after 15 or 20 minutes of roughing as well. Had to slow down MRR to around the 60-80 cube range and still couldn't move it out.

    Stephen (Blue Steel)... High speed vs HP has a number of variables associated. The bottom line slow or fast is the MRR (Material Removal Rate). I can apply HSM principles to a 3500rpm spindle just as well as 35k spindle. The theories work for most RPM ranges. The effectiveness is what changes based on the given rpm, feed capability, accel/decel constants, tooling technology, machine/control technology, etc. This is a huge subject to have to go over in short blurbs....

    Oh, and while on this subject, why do machine tool builders (all brands) not put much thought into chip control and movement?
    They do to some degree. The problem is that most people/shops in the industry do NOT push their machines to such levels. Doesn't matter if they know how or not. Even power cuts taken at the factory are only for short blasts. They don't test the machine at max HP cut for 3hours straight on a part. They just test to see if it can which might only be 5-15 minutes at a time. "True Production" power cuts aren't done.
    Also, keep in mind that many MTBs build and design machine models based upon a particular demand or market. It's impossible to cover them and test for them all. The FH1250 was built around automotive and large heavy metals. Probably not with the intention of aerospace or semi-conductor with a huge percentage of aluminum components. Although, with the current High Feed tools out now, I can actually move more material in steel than this machine can remove right now... but as I said, we're working on it.
    I don't think there's a machine or builder out there that I haven't modified something in order to move more chips out. Tool technology, cutting technology and theories tend to move forward much more quickly than many components of the machines themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by psychomill View Post
    I don't think there's a machine or builder out there that I haven't modified something in order to move more chips out. Tool technology, cutting technology and theories tend to move forward much more quickly than many components of the machines themselves.
    Ya, as I stated, we've worked with one major manufacturer quite a bit. I don't think anyone had ever tried to put that much material through one before. Someone in a job shop would have never had an issue, but when you go to running 24/7 automated with high MMRs, it shows up in a hurry. You can't make any money stopping every 20 minutes or less to clean out chips piled up higher than the door.

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    They do to some degree. The problem is that most people/shops in the industry do NOT push their machines to such levels.
    Reminds me of a story. I visited the Cincinnati Milacron plant in Cincinnati about 15-18 years ago. In the retrofit area there was a large Cinturn that had just been retrofitted with the then brand new 850SX control and was being qualified for the customer under operating conditions before shipment. It was turning railroad car wheels. There was a two wheeled cart of the type used to shuttle concrete on construction sites under the chip conveyor and two spares. It was one man's full time assignment just to wheel the full cart out to the dumpster and dump it, bring it back and swap it for the full one under the chip conveyor. The spare was occasionally needed when the man needed a potty break. It was only about 50 feet to the dock where the dumpster was. They ran like that for a full two weeks before the customer would accept the machine.

    When you look inside a Cinturn, there's nothing but conveyor at the bottom. No reinforcing webs, braces, sheetmetal, conduit, guards etc to get in the way. Why aren't the new machines built that way?

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    Those Cinturns had their issues too. We had a bunch of them at one time (4 axis). The Jorgensen conveyors they used had poor support for the conveyor belt as it came back underneath, and would, over the course of a couple of years, wear holes in the bottom of the conveyor/tank.

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    I remember those too... and the conveyor. Makino also went to center conveyors on their E series HMCs but they have problems as well. I just don't think there is a "perfect" conveyor out yet. Yeah, many styles perform better than others and definately many perform better in particular materials than others. Some designs are less problematic than others. True "coolant only" chip flow systems even have there problems.

    The only that can really be done for the moment is to hope that you end up with the lesser of all the evils and work within its operating capacity while still making money. The current system I have is costing money and that won't do....

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    I have a Cinturn with a lot of hours, but no holes in the conveyor so far. What do I have to do to keep that from happening? If I keep the rubber paddles in good shape will that prevent the holes from happening?

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    Someone wunna 'splain to me Lucy why conveyors don't have paddles on EVERY or at least every other link?

    Drives my nuts when I have a load of chips that keep rolling back and back and ............

    I guess if you leave them run continuously that isn't such the deal, but I like my chips to drip dry on the conveyor.



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    I am Ox and I approve this here post!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mudflap View Post
    I have a Cinturn with a lot of hours, but no holes in the conveyor so far. What do I have to do to keep that from happening? If I keep the rubber paddles in good shape will that prevent the holes from happening?
    We fixed it by getting rid of the machines.....

    Actually, we kept a spare conveyor fixed up to swap out. We did get rid of the machines, 7 years of 24/7 heavy interrupted cuts just literally beat them to death.

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    What is the D of the 4th (A/B) axis on these things and what is the resolution?


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    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    We fixed it by getting rid of the machines.....
    Ditto....

    Ox, the max diameter is 94.5 inches... Full 4th (3 place resolution)

    For coolant drainage, if you have a puck machine you can recover most of it... we also have a large gate valve on the bottom of all of our chip bins....

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    For the machines that aren't hooked into the central chip handling systems, we also use ball valves on the chip buggies. Another trick.....
    Make a 4-1/2 sided box with a drain spout. Bolt it to the lip under the chip outlet, bent back so it doesn't catch chips, but the coolant that is pushed up with the paddles runs down into the box, not in the chip bin. Run a drain hose from the spout back to the machine tank.

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    Quote Originally Posted by psychomill View Post
    Ox, the max diameter is 94.5 inches... Full 4th (3 place resolution)

    Well that still comes out to .0008" linear resolution I guess...

    Eny idea what the repeatability is out there?


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