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  1. #141
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    Psycho,
    Fully understand and agree but what I was eluding to was machine warm-up regarding miss-matches.
    Previous place had 4 HG400's (Hitachi Hori's) and they used to move from cold in 2 ways.
    The 1st was the column sloped back slightly when warm, so in clocking a cube in the Y, the clock ran away at the top slightly when warm.
    Also, if you finished a floor of a component with a different tool to the sidewall, there would be initial miss-match (say 10 to 20 microns).
    When warm all was ok.
    I appreciate you can get around miss-matches by finishing the sidewalls and floor with the same tool, but what I was really asking I suppose is do these monster machines suffer more from this because they're physically bigger?
    Also, do the colums move on these at all (I've also seen this on a small matsuura 300 when warming up).
    Cheers,
    Terry

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    Questions:

    What does FMS stand for? (I understand it's some variant on a pallet pool - but whare the actual words that make up the acronym?)

    What/who is/are JTEKT?

    What/who is/are TMU?

    And finally - is a tool matrix/hive/giant-rack-of-tools mean to serve multiple machines? Or is it 300+ tool changer for just 1 machine? (I would think you'd want to share it, and the pallet pool, but....)

  3. #143
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    Barbter,

    I haven't done any real "cavity" work yet on these because of the chip problem so I haven't had to machine in the situation you describe. As for the column growing, I haven't noticed but again, machines are not in full production to even equate any history.

    But, for big machines in general.... yes, thermal can be a problem with machine geometry. There are ways to machine around some and even probe them out but again, new generation machines have much better controls, casting design, foundation design, etc to combat this. But, in general, you are correct. Depending on foundation design (how the machine is attached, not necessarily the concrete itself) the motion can be large or next to none. 10 or 20 microns isn't a whole lot for cavity type work so it would be ignored but for precision work, it can certainly make you or break. For note, I do run a warm up program on all large equipment (regardless of spindle speed). It runs through the spindle rpm range and all axes are in motion to come up to "operating temperature". The program is also triggered by timers in the event a machine is idle for extended periods.

    Bryan,

    TMU stands for "Toyoda Machinery USA". It is the US division of the machine tool company based in Illinois.

    JTEKT is the parent company in Japan that TMU reports to. JTEKT also owns Mitsui Seiki and a couple other European brands.

    FMS is a "Flexible Manufacturing System". These, unlike pallet pools, are modular by design and can be added to (more machines, more pallets, stacker, more load stations, etc). Below is a picture of my FH8800 FMS system. I think I have pictures of other FMS systems in this thread or my other thread in the Mazak forum.

    Tool Hive, Tool Matrix is a single magazine for a single machine. I attached pictures on a post (I think) of a Tool Hive bolted onto one of my Toyodas. It is a 330 tool magazine for one spindle. I have tool hives on most of my large machines and other cell production machines.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 8800_fms.jpg  

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    Thanks psycho - I've seen a fastems system attached to a pair of DMG duoblocks - saw the owner maybe 18 months later, described it as a huge win. Apparently they load the thing up and it runs unattended over a weekend.... Those machines have 120 or 200 tool mags as well.

    Re large tool magazines - so nobody has a large shared tool magazine yet? Isn't the point to have sets of identical tools, to cover all jobs in the work flow, and when the machine's built-in wear measurement system discovers a tool is broken or worn out, switch to another one? But for multi-headed installation, I'd think you'd want to share this tooling inventory. (Just like you want the FMS to feed all the machines...)

    (Of course, if you have gangs of people removing chips with scoop shovels and refilling coolant tanks with fire hoses, it kind of doesn't matter... Sigh...)

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    Re large tool magazines - so nobody has a large shared tool magazine yet?
    When I looked around Mazak's manufacturing base her in the UK about 5 years ago, I'm sure they had a row of 3x hori's which shared tools.
    I maybe mistaken as I've been to sleep since...

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    I've seen and run much older systems (built in the 60s and 70s) that had a "shared magazine" set up. Ultimately, you end up with a spindle sitting. The problem with shared tools is often times, both machines might need them at the same time (happens more than you'd think).
    I've had the same system just simply be a large tool storage with independantly operating cutters for each spindle. But this a waste a space and would have been far more efficient with seperate magazines for each machine. Not to mention, only 1 robot fed the tools so even in an "isolated" configuration, a spindle still sat waiting on a tool.

    Barbter is on the right track. Mazak does have a tool system that can feed multiple machines. I forget what it's called and I wish I had a picture of it. This is a huge modular system. Basically, it's a seperate tool system that's running with a machine's existing tool changer system. So, you still have a Tool Hive but a smaller one. The Robot is a gantry machine with access to rows and rows of tooling that is set up in these small "groups" so to speak (maybe 8-12 tools or something?). The robot feeds these little clusters to each machine magazine that loads them into the Hive.
    This system can be as large as you can imagine with 10s of thousands of tools in its library. It can also be built with a Tool Loading stations, Tool Setting stations, Racks for new and set tools, seperate racks for used, worn, broken tooing to be changed, racks for Specialized tools for user purposes, etc, etc.

    But this is for a huge scaled operation. Not for the 'job shop' for sure. But smaller systems designed for the smaller shops just don't work well in efficiency. It can't. The only way is to double up on robots (or more), add small mags to the machine, and a well written software logic to manage it..... Better off with a tool hive for each machine....

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    Got it. So in practice you are just putting a very large ATC on each machine. And then "tooling up" to the tune of hundreds of holders and bits for each machine.

  8. #148
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    Right... So, one might have a mill with a 20 or 30 tool chain/drum magazine. Even less on some umbrella or turret style ATCs....

    I on the other hand have a "bedroom" that can fit 330 tools for a tool magazine on each spindle/machine....

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    Quote Originally Posted by psychomill View Post
    I on the other hand have a "bedroom" that can fit 330 tools for a tool magazine on each spindle/machine....
    As long as Mrs Psycho is happy

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevo1 View Post
    Psychomill I just wanted to say thanks for taking one for the team. You were willing to take the big girls home so we could have the small ones.

    Make sure that you get some good pics when that thing is making chips.

    Greg your right, at 1200IPM the over ride knob will be the first thing to break. This machine could probably use a sphincter activated estop .

    I stold that line from another post could not remember who said it but I was if tears when I heard it.

    Stevo
    Sphincter activated E-stop? What a wonderful idea. I could definitely see an application or two for that. At 1200 ipm,oh yeah, I'd need that. But the boss would never get it to move, being such a tight a__!

  11. #151
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    There was a posting some years back of a website (not necessarily on PM but some forum anyway) and splash page for a "Pucker Stop" or Puck stop (something like that). That's where that ass activated e-stop deal comes from. It was funnier than hell and I wish I ran some prints on it. It was set up like a product promo page from a major tool builder... very detailed with specs and everything. The link is no longer active though and I've never seen it since on the web or otherwise. Maybe whoever built that webpage could post it again somewhere... It was a riot!

  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by psychomill View Post
    The link is no longer active though and I've never seen it since on the web or otherwise. Maybe whoever built that webpage could post it again somewhere... It was a riot!
    I saw it too, have looked for it and can't find it. Thought maybe it was a hallucination, it should have prompted copycats.

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    Hey Psycho,
    Any update to report? It's been a couple of months...

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    Bump! In for updates. I have a Toyoda salesman hounding me to buy from him instead of the vtc 250 mazak I am looking at.

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    Well let's see.... I've just had the "Fix the Coolant and chips problem" Version 18 installed so we'll have to see how that goes. Of course, as soon as I started get set up on a part, the spindle nose cap welded it'self to the spindle taper for an unknown reason and had to get fixed. No known cause as the nose has never been tapped. I'm being told that chips may be getting behind the cap.... GREAT!... get it to not do that then?!?!.
    Also, recently had to "re-identify" a problem with the Tool Hive set up. I get tools thrown around the ATC area because when the carrier goes to grab the tool from the magazine "Rabbit", there's no lock on it. The carrier pushes it around causing a misalignment and throws tools. I noted this during the Tool Hive install that this was going to be a problem but as usual, Toyoda likes to ignore it until there is a problem....

    As for comparing to a VTC250... I'm not a huge fan of the VTC but I can certainly see it's uses. I'm more partial to the FJV machines by far but there is a significant cost difference I believe. But, the VTC is a very fast machine since the part doesn't move.
    Remember though, the problems I'm having are really isoloated to the FH1250 machines and not necessarily a "Toyoda Issue" across the board. They do make nice VMCs and other HMCs don't have the issues I'm having.

    JTEKT just simply jumped the gun by getting into a High Speed large format HMC machine with a pile of iron that was nowhere, no way, no how ready for it....

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    Thanks for the update! Yeah the VTC is a strange machine but I think it will work well for me because we do a lot of long oil field parts, like milling pockets in 30 foot long joints of pipe so the stationary table is a big draw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by psychomill View Post
    Well let's see.... I've just had the "Fix the Coolant and chips problem" Version 18 installed so we'll have to see how that goes. Of course, as soon as I started get set up on a part, the spindle nose cap welded it'self to the spindle taper for an unknown reason and had to get fixed. No known cause as the nose has never been tapped. I'm being told that chips may be getting behind the cap.... GREAT!... get it to not do that then?!?!.
    Just curious about the chip-behind-the-cap issue (in addition to the main chip issue) - does this cap supply your air purge/curtain around the spindle to keep chips and coolant out? Also, does the air curtain (I presume it does use said air curtain) blow the entire time there is power to the machine, only when the spindle is turning, or on during running and then time out after a M5? This has been a HUGE problem on our vertical, to the tune of 4 spindle failures in as many months . It's under control now, but took a visit from the President and Service Manager of Yama Seiki, and the GM of Awea to really confirm what was going on (on this one and many more field failures from around the world), with zero input from Toyoda. For those who do not know, Awea was contracted to build Toyoda verticals for a while, and Yama Seiki USA is the US sales arm of Awea (machining centers)/Goodway (lathes).

    Steve

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    Good points... I know the oil/air is running cuz I can hear it and feel it. Now whether or not it's ALWAYS running, I don't know. But for the air pressure... our chip velocity is so high, I doubt the air pressure can combat that.

    I suspect there are some clearance issues coming into play along with thermal growth and taper deformation under high rpm and/or loads. But, it's hard to say since these 1250s can't stay running long enough to figure it out with the numerous problems.

    I do know though..... Having a 40HP spindle on a machine like this is about the dumbest thing ever... Especially with these motors because the continuous rating gets cut in half! I've got 15 year old 40 taper machines that do better. I've been moving a couple of programs off of my Mazaks onto them and I have to cut feedrates anywhere from 40-60 percent to get it to run without stalling the spindle.

    So, not only have these machines been a huge financial dissapointment since they've never made a red cent.... they're also adding to my operating costs and production costs..... What a F-ing joke.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by psychomill View Post

    So, not only have these machines been a huge financial dissapointment since they've never made a red cent.... they're also adding to my operating costs and production costs..... What a F-ing joke.....
    At this rate, I doubt they will ever make you any pennies unless you can fudge the burden rate based on a 100 year life and operating costs at what they should be...probably not a GAAP through. Maybe you can accellerate the depreciation over a three year period, take your licks for another 16 months or so, and have a few FH's sitting in the wings to exchange.

    So, to repeat part of post #137:

    "I am interested in your position on throwing in the towel and ordering the three FH12800's and proven FMS. I presume that you have thought this scenario through. If the Toys will never meet your needs, then your ROI is out the window anyway, maybe it would be better to cut your losses and start over. The safety issues of loading parts alone would almost warrant a change...2,000# plates tend to squish more than just fingers. The worst part of the whole thing, other than someone getting injured, is the inability to deliver parts as planned - I do hope you are meeting your customers' requirements, but I have a hard time believing you can if you planed for three machines, and they are running at somewhere in a 40% range (I assume you are using up a bunch of efficiency with the snow shovels, TSC issues, etc. )."

    Looks like I think I was being generous with the efficiency number at 40%.

    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by psychomill View Post
    So, not only have these machines been a huge financial dissapointment since they've never made a red cent.... they're also adding to my operating costs and production costs..... What a F-ing joke.....
    Man, I can't imagine the pain.

    What a huge disappointment. It would suck if you had one of these. But three.


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