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10hp RPC and a hard to start load motor

jhg

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 4, 2004
Location
colorado
I have a FW design 10hp RPC that works great. Now I have two 7.5hp load motors in my shop- a wood planer and a tablesaw.
The motors are both made by Baldor and are of the same rpm. Identical motors actually.

The saw starts okay, but the planer must be the larger static load- the wind up to full rpm is slow. Short of upsizing my idler motor what are my options, if any, to mitigate some of this problem.

Thanks

Jhg
 
A couple tricks to consider. If you could bring the start capacitors into the circuit for a second or so will give you a starting "kick".
Or, could you loosen the belt to start and get the motor going at speed with a bit less load then tighten the belt.

I have a 20 and a 25 hp belt driven blowers that I start by loosening the belts. They are on a 30 hp idler. Probably the thing that makes it an acceptable method for me is that, they will run for weeks once they are going.
 
I have a 24" planer with a 7 1/2 horse motor. I also have a 10 horse RPC that I start with a pony motor. Planer only takes about 3-4 seconds to come up to speed. Mine has a seperate feed motor that I start AFTER I start the cutterhead motor. I have run this planer for several hours with no problems. How long is it taking for yours to start?
 
I have supplied designs for 7.5 hp planers using a 10 hp idlers and they work ok. My design is based on the Fitch Williams design but I upscaled th circuit to a 60 amp and all the components and wiring are suitable for 60 amp single phase supply. I also use a potential relay and start relay but that should not make a difference. I know one of these is installed on a 24" Cresent planer with a 7.5 hp motor. the owner has tripped the overloads on the planer motor but has never tripped the overloads in the RPC. If you are interested, I can look up his name and send him a note and ask him to comment in this string.
One thing you might try is to balance to a +10% voltage balance. The higher voltage will help you get the loads started.
 
if hooked together use the saw as an idler untill the planer comes up to rpms. a 10 horse rpc should fire off a 7.5 load unless this is a really hard to start load or the rpc is not balanced
 
Joshua,

Jeff from over at OWWM. A few thoughts about what has already been suggested. Woodhick (another OWWMer) says he starts his 7 1/2 HP 24" planer with a 10 HP idler and that start-up is 3-4 seconds. As you know I have a couple of 20" planers. Both have Baldor 7 1/2 HP motors. Whether I start the one I'm running with the 15 HP side of my RPC or with both (22 1/2 HP) of idler running, my start up times are on the order of 1 second or less. I can't discern any difference from equivalent planers wired to utility 3 phase. Woodhick starts his feed motor, after the c-head motor. Due to needing to rework my reversing drum, I start my feed motor first, actually it starts when I energize the 3 phase output of the RPC if the planer is plugged in. Though my cutterhead weighs about 25% more than yours (I didn't do the rotational inertia calculations), your 180 has to get more started when you consider the feed mechanism. A proposed experiment: Have you timed starting your planer with the feed speed at the lowest and highest rates? It wouldn't suprise me if the added mechanical advantage of the slowest speed would decrease start times a hair. Not a solution.

As gpkull stated "use the saw as an idler untill the planer comes up to rpms". I can't recall your setup but if you have the outlets and the ampacity it would be a cheap way to a 17 1/2 HP idler. Measure your voltages (for balance) and currents (for capacity) with the RPC and saw running. See if you have the amps to spare. Remember, with the RPC and saw running, the planer will not pull near as many amps at startup.

As Toolnut (yet another OWWMer) said, you might try balancing to a higher voltage to eliminate some of the inevitable sag.

Lastly, and perhaps the better solution, what YoungDen suggested; wiring in a start capacitor circuit at the load motor. Before trying this I would look at your wire sizing and do the math remembering you are not going to be dealing with a balanced 3 phase load (at start up) nor a single phase load (FLA X 1.73). Probably somewhere in between, perhaps Peter or Jim would know. My 221's came from Powermatic with 10 gauge to the mag starter, 10 gauge from starter to cutterhead motor, 12 gauge for the feed-motor circuitry (drum and motor) and 12 gauge for the remote on/off station. I am going to upgrade the run from the 3 phase distribution to machine to 8 gauge.

Now, how to engage/disengage the start caps? I thought of 4 ways:

1) a seperate HP rated switch controling the start caps or a smaller switch controling a contactor. Would work but not elegant.

2) utilizing the NO switch from the three wire control station to energize a contactor as long as it was depressed ..... hold it down until the machine was up to speed. I can't off the top of my head remember exactly how a 160 or 180 is wired. The contactor for the caps would not have a regenerating shunt to keep the coil energized, the mag starter would need the shunt as it's wired now. I can't see how to seperate them and operate with the same switch. Maybe Jim, Peter or Toolnut know a way???

3) Using a potential relay such as a Grainger (GE) 6X550 or SteveCo 90-66 to drop the caps out when the motor is up to speed. The problem is the relay monitors the voltage between one of the utility legs and the generated leg. Fine for starting a 3 phase on single phase where Vo in the generated leg is zero, not so good when Vo in the monitored phase (utility<->generated) is around 240 V., above the drop-out. The voltage may sag enough during start-up to energize the relay but I doubt it.

4) an adjustable timed relay. Ray Muno uses a timed relay to start his RPC as do several of the guys here at PM. They could probably steer you towards a good unit.

Lastly, if you built and balanced your RPC as per Fitch Williams, you should have approximately 60% of your run between one of the utility legs and the generated leg. Parallel to this are your start caps, eh? If you do try to use additional start capacitance to kick start the load motor, make damn sure that the capacitors or between those same two legs.

My $0.02

Jeff
 
Using the tablesaw would be the easiest solution. Can I wire two 30 amp 3 phase outlets on the same circuit and achieve this? One plug to the planer and one plug to the saw.

jhg
 
"One plug to the planer and one plug to the saw."

One receptacle for the table saw which is unloaded and acting as a secondary idler, and the second receptacle for the planer?

Could work.
 








 
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