200 Volt - 3 Phase Motors

What do I do with a straight 200 Volt, 3 phase motor? Where are they used? I couldn't get it to run.

gjrepesh said:

What do I do with a straight 200 Volt, 3 phase motor? Where are they used? I couldn't get it to run.

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More information needed.. at least a picture of motor and nameplate.

Ray

I have been using a rotary phase converter for years. I run 220 volt, 3 phase motors all day long. My converter would not run the 200 volter. I thought it was just on odd ball motor. Certainly not common among all the motors I've run across. Its a 2 HP and came with a 14" Logan lathe purchased 10+ years ago. I changed the motor. Don't plan to use it but wanted to know something about it. Thanks.

gjrepesh said:

Don't plan to use it but wanted to know something about it. Thanks.

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Could be Japanese.. It's not an AC servo by any chance? Pictures?

Ray

If it really IS a 50Hz Japanese motor, then just take a piece of tape and write 240V on it.

Stick that on the motor by the dataplate.

Because that is what voltage a Japanese 200V 50Hz motor is when in the US at 60HZ.

This is the plate off a 1953 Cincinnati No.4 from England. 400v 3phase 50cy. So as Thermite said just older stuff before standardization. So apparently England did things like Japan Hz wise. No clue if the machine ran in the US like this, it was remotored for 220 3ph 60hz long before I got it. Just posted the information for a time and machine reference.

The Hz only affects the speed. If a 50 HZ motor is run maxed out on 60 Hz it might have a cooling problem but very few machine tool motors run maxed out for any length of time.It is more likely that a 60 Hz motor on 50 Hz would have a cooling problem since it's fan is 20% slower. For all practical purposes it just means that a 50Hz motor will run 20% faster on 60 Hz.

tdmidget said:

The Hz only affects the speed. If a 50 HZ motor is run maxed out on 60 Hz it might have a cooling problem but very few machine tool motors run maxed out for any length of time.It is more likely that a 60 Hz motor on 50 Hz would have a cooling problem since it's fan is 20% slower. For all practical purposes it just means that a 50Hz motor will run 20% faster on 60 Hz.

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Yes you are correct, that's pretty much it. we get 60Hz motors from time to time, ( mains in Australia, and most of the civilized world is 50hz 240V ) and 60Hz rated motors run just fine on 50Hz just a bit slower... there is a voltage issue if you want to keep to constant v/hz curve, but in practice you don't have to drop the voltage for 50hz, the transition from constant torque to constant horsepower is when you run out of volts, not hz.

There is another slightly related issue with transformers that are designed for 50hz being run at 60hz... because the heating of the transformer core relates to the hysteresis losses, and the losses occur each cycle the result is more cycles per second means transformers run hotter at 60hz than they do on 50hz.

Most countries in the world run 50hz mains.

Still can't help the OP any further without some pictures...

Ray

motor label.

This thread is what happens when the description is not "200V 3 phase 60Hz"

And especially when there really IS a place that would truly use that, all except the "60 Hz " part.....

Somebody seems not to have seen the "if it really IS" art of the quote...

Use a vfd to run it. Requires a few parameter changes but it will work fine.

It's not so oddball. It's likely just a 200 volt motor for a 208 supply like 220 is to 240, and 460 is to 480 - develops full power at a lower voltage to make up for voltage drop in the feeders or whatever.

My genuine US Motors BP motor is 200v. I run it on 240 all day long.

I agree with Bill - if it doesn't "run" on 240, something is wrong with it.

A motor that doesn't run is generally NFG, unless some easy problem is involved.

Out of curiosity....did you ohmmeter it? I looked over the thread and didn't see that.

You should get same resistance between any pairs of the 3 input wires. if not, you can look to see if it has any easy reason, like a thermal protector that went bad. It's common to have a thermal on motors up to 1 HP (in lieu of a "motor controller with protection"), and they often connect the 3 wires at the wye point, because it's easy.

I don't have much background in checking motors. I can perform tests I am made aware of. This is not a pressing issue but am curious enough to follow the suggestions and see whats there. Thanks.

JST said:

Out of curiosity....did you ohmmeter it? I looked over the thread and didn't see that.

You should get same resistance between any pairs of the 3 input wires. if not, you can look to see if it has any easy reason, like a thermal protector that went bad. It's common to have a thermal on motors up to 1 HP (in lieu of a "motor controller with protection"), and they often connect the 3 wires at the wye point, because it's easy.

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There are two "Classes" of voltages un the US: Distribution Voltage and Utilization Voltage. Distribution is what the utilities deliver: 480, 240, 208 etc. utilization is what the equipment, i.e. motor, manufacturers design to, which allows for a certain amount of expected voltage drop between the distribution connection and the motor termination. The Utilization Voltage is always lower. So for 480V, it is 460V, for 240V it is 230V, and for 208V it is 200V. That's what you have.

Because of the volume of 208V 3 phase distribution systems in commercial installations, many motor mfrs sell a motor rated for anywhere from 200-240V. It's really a compromise, but they don't say that. you would get better motor life on a 208V system using a motor nameplated at 200V.

PS, as others have said, there is nothing about the voltage rating that would make it not work on a 240V 3 phase system (although it would run hot and not last long). So if it failed to start, it was something else.

Very helpful post. Thank you,

Jraef said:

There are two "Classes" of voltages un the US: Distribution Voltage and Utilization Voltage. Distribution is what the utilities deliver: 480, 240, 208 etc. utilization is what the equipment, i.e. motor, manufacturers design to, which allows for a certain amount of expected voltage drop between the distribution connection and the motor termination. The Utilization Voltage is always lower. So for 480V, it is 460V, for 240V it is 230V, and for 208V it is 200V. That's what you have.

Because of the volume of 208V 3 phase distribution systems in commercial installations, many motor mfrs sell a motor rated for anywhere from 200-240V. It's really a compromise, but they don't say that. you would get better motor life on a 208V system using a motor nameplated at 200V.

PS, as others have said, there is nothing about the voltage rating that would make it not work on a 240V 3 phase system (although it would run hot and not last long). So if it failed to start, it was something else.

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I just experienced my first 200 volt three phase motor. In a 70's Rockwell HD shaper. It's a two horse motor that says on the nameplate it was built by Baldor. I called Delta technical help about this and he told me Baldor still makes 200 volt motors. Rockwell had them available for special order. They were used in places, especially rural areas, that could not get full 230 volt power at that distance. He said it could be run anywhere between 180 and 220 volts. Main thing was that it did not draw any more amps than the motor faceplate shows. My three phase measures 226 volts so no go for me. Tom

Just to reiterate, it has nothing to do with "rural areas". 200V is the OFFICIAL utilization voltage rating for a motor designed to function on a 208V 3 phase system, VERY COMMON in the US for light industrial and commercial 3 phase installations.

The fact that a LOT of people just go ahead and use a 230V rated motor on a 208V supply is just the real world meeting the official world. Distributors don't like to stock motors that can only be sold in one specific area. So many of the motor mfrs released motors with nameplates that say something like "208/230V" and provide two values of FLA, one for 208V, one for 230V. What those are however is a compromise design, basically a 220V winding that is designed to allow for a wider voltage tolerance.

The standard NEMA design spec is +-10%, so a motor designed for 230V is good for 207 to 253V without appreciable loss of performance or life. However, Utility standards allow for a +-5% voltage tolerance, and then that is just to the Service Entrance. By the time the voltage gets through all the wires to the motor, it often drops another 5% or more. So on a 208V service from the utility, they are allowed to deliver you 197.6V, then by the time that gets out to the motor, it might be 187V. So for a true 230V motor design, you are another 10% below the allowable 10% of it's range and the motor will fry. On the "dual rated" motors, they use a 220V winding basis, then use a little more iron to allow a wider acceptable range of +-15%, making it good for 187 to 253V. But that costs more, so OEMs, who have to watch every penny, buy the 200V motors when they know the end user has 208V.

What you do with it after it get there is your own business.

But as the others have said, if it didn't work on your RPC, it's because there is something else wrong with it, not because it is a 200V design. It should have started and run, but would have run hot.

So if I have 3ph 230v power, I can run a Japanese 3ph 200v with no issues?

Blue Sky said:

So if I have 3ph 230v power, I can run a Japanese 3ph 200v with no issues?

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200v 50hz motors work just fine on 230v 60hz.

if you have a 200v 60hz motor then you will need to monitor the motor's temperature if you intend to just plug it in and see if you can get away with it.