30hp ADX problem. American Rotary
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  1. #1
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    Default 30hp ADX problem. American Rotary

    Keep having the same 3 lines in the motor junction box blow. Has done it atleast 3 times aver the course of 3 years. This does not get much use.
    Keep getting the run around from AR. Sent pictures before. Can't get a straight answer why these 3 same lines are doing this.
    Will run fine one day and maybe a couple days later, and then boom. . Out of the blue.
    Nothing is energized when turning the unit on.

    Unit was professionally installed.

    What should I be looking at. Getting to the point, going to have to send the idler out to have new connection lines installed and the motor looked at.

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    Anyone see any reason why I could not run a smaller idler on this unit.
    Now after contacting them about this same issue, every year since I've owned it, it's take the idler in to a repair shop and have it looked at. But it's not under warranty.

    And still no response on why just those 3 same lines.

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    Pictures, diagrams, which three lines?

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    I have attatched a picture of the 3 wires that are constantly affected.

    looking for my manuals to be able to pull up a schematic on exactly which ones they are.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails rotary-wires.jpg  

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    Schematic would sure help. What are those wires? Extras in the peckerhead that dont have wire nuts on the ends? Melted power wires from loose connections?
    How are you connecting the wires? Ring terminals and bolts or twisted together with tape wrap?
    We need more info
    What are the readings on your legs and how are the 3 wires related?

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    they are melted. They were connected by ring terminals and a bolt. This has done this since the day Ive owned it. Now they finally tell me I need to have the idler looked at( of course out of warranty).

    The solid red and blue are from the idler motor. the black from the control box. Ill get more info. no numbering on these lines that i can see



    https://www.americanrotary.com/wp-co...sManual_02.pdf
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails adx1.jpg  

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    you need to cut the copper back to good non oxidized copper before you crimp on a new connector.

    alternatively, dip the ends in hydrocloric acid, then wash them, then solder them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johansen View Post
    you need to cut the copper back to good non oxidized copper before you crimp on a new connector.

    alternatively, dip the ends in hydrocloric acid, then wash them, then solder them.
    I've made sure the previous 3 times , to have good clean wire. When remaking the connections. These 3 are now probably on the last time it "could" be done, as they are that short.

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    The wires themselves do not look damaged. It appears that the connections were not good.

    Melting of the connected part of the wire normally is due to heating from a bad connection. In this case, I assume the wires were cut back already, since they do not even look typical for that.

    If there was excess current, the wires should be overheated, which they do not appear to be. A pic of the wire in the "burned/melted" condition would confirm the "bad connection" idea, or possibly rule it out.

    Did you use the wire sizes called for?

    How were the connections made? What type connectors?

    Were the connectors re-used?

    Are you certain the connections were tight?

    If the connections are via set screws in a terminal block, are you sure the block and screws were clean?

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    Original connections- ring terminals with nut and bolt
    subsequent connections- same

    This is the only set it ever happens to. And it happens only when starting the unit up. Nothing is 'turned on" when starting the unit up.
    It will run fine for a few days, and then out of the blue, it blows these 3 lines.
    Still to this day have no answer for it. None.

    This is why I am stumped. I dont believe it to be the idler.

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    Wire size?

    Current level?

    Was the ring connector put on properly, using the right tool?

    Was the ring connector intended for that size wire?

    Bad crimps are known for causing this trouble.

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    have a motor shop take a good look at it and measure the amp draw, id be willing to bet that line is one of the windings that have an intermittent short or bad connection internally. 30HP amp draw, would have to have at least a 150A single phase breaker/fuses with at least 250A surge into it.

    those wires look awefully small to be even using that much current at 230V.

    what is your power supply to this unit all the way from the road?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BT Fabrication View Post
    have a motor shop take a good look at it and measure the amp draw, id be willing to bet that line is one of the windings that have an intermittent short or bad connection internally. 30HP amp draw, would have to have at least a 150A single phase breaker/fuses with at least 250A surge into it.

    those wires look awefully small to be even using that much current at 230V.

    what is your power supply to this unit all the way from the road?
    In AR's manual it states 3ga wire to the idler box .
    2 of those wires in the picture are straight from the idler motor, so if they are undersized any at all, that's on the manufacturer and AR.

    Looks like I'm just gonna have to take the motor in.

    Still curious if I could run a smaller idler on this box. They say no.

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    Normally, the idler size is set by the amount of start (and balance) capacitance. Or vice-versa, since a given size idler needs "X" amount of each.

    Since they provide a certain amount, then the box is "unsuitable for" a smaller idler unless the amount of capacitance is adjusted.

    You should be able to do that. What WOULD be a problem, is going UP in idler size. That would require bigger everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by toolmaker View Post
    In AR's manual it states 3ga wire to the idler box .
    2 of those wires in the picture are straight from the idler motor, so if they are undersized any at all, that's on the manufacturer and AR.

    Looks like I'm just gonna have to take the motor in.

    Still curious if I could run a smaller idler on this box. They say no.
    No idea how they built their rig, I might have torn it down for parts and re-done it about the time the silly f**ker came off what seems to have been an essentially USELESS "warranty", what with the issues you have had?

    Then again, "it's the internet". You could just be an unlucky f**k-up who has been using Nylon nuts and bolts..

    I tease... it was really duct tape and used chewing gum, yah?



    But "in the general case":

    My whole rig is fired-off by ONE of Jim Gorman's "Phase-Craft" starter controller units in his last-revision "Bigger Box" version that was ordered for the 4-Pole 10 HP Weg that was initially the ONLY idler.

    Change 23:

    The run caps for the 10 HP inside the Phase-Craft box were fastened in rather... "thoroughly". So they were simply disconnected and LEFT there.

    Near-as-dammit same values mount in a box ON that 10 HP Weg, motor side of a contactor with 24 VAC coil.

    There are TWO 7.5 HP Reliance Duty-Master "XES" severe service idlers that differ only in having different run/balance cap values. Which caps are also mounted to the motor, not the control box.

    Fourth player is but a 3 HP Reliance Duty Master XES. It, too has its run/balance caps motor side of the contactor, box right on the motor. Zoro/Grainger have been putting Weigemann boxes "NK" (No knockouts) onto my front porch in 2 or 3 days and at waaay lower cost than a Hoffmann NEMA 1 box. I use the really DEEP ones. "Too small" boxes exist. "Too BIG" do not exist. I have all manner of hole saws, nibblers, and annular cutters, so an "NK" box ends up very "clean".



    The Phase Craft starts the 10 HP Weg same as it ever did.

    It can also start either of the 7.5 HP with no real drama.
    They just come up "onto plane" mighty fast.

    The 3 HP I've no plans to EVER start "first', even if it is all I need for the day.

    I only need an idler up onto it's equivalent of water skiis and set to planing along smoothly. I do NOT need for the start cap that expected a 10 HP-load to kick it in the ass so hard as to launch it into the next County as if it were a Four-Deuce mortar round!



    Start the 10 or one of the 7.5's. Drop the 3 HP onto the line. Drop the bigger one OFF the line. Now I am good to go for my 3/4 HP. 1 1/2 HP, and 1 3/4 HP loads.

    That totals to 28 idler HP, if you followed the math. A 5 HP in there in place of the 3 HP, and I would have the same 30 HP with four idlers as you have with one idler.

    But near-zero "drama" as to starting load hitting my utility mains. 10 HP is all it ever sees in one-go, otherwise 7.5 HP.

    BFD.

    Annnd I gained the easy ability to run whatever idler HP and balance caps as best match the actual load, 3/4 HP, 1 1/2 HP. 1 3/4 HP loads, on-up. Annd for either both of starting a load - ALWAYS a tad brutal - or running it, usually at only partial load, anyway.

    Some are harder to start than others, and the only ONE of mine as has a clutch is the smallest. The 3/4 HP that powers the feeds and rapids on the knee of a mill.

    A lesser idler is good for running an already-started load - always easier, with those I happen to have as they don't often work at all hard.

    You have no compelling reason to copy that. Any of it.
    I'm not trying to "sell" you one, either.

    But DO take note that RPC are just that easy to make "flexible".

    PM's forum on it is FULL of examples of many ways to go. Read the "stickies".

    Many of us use the circuit contributed by the late Fitch Williams. It is shown for 10 HP. All you have to do is multiply or divide his capacitor values for "X" HP and go for the nearest "standard" size. Use a dual-section one for fine adjustment. It's why they exist.

    And Fitch actually WAS a "rocket scientist"!!!

    But what he designed for rockets was the power supplies that run the fuel pumps and all that sort of stuff. His RPC work is not the ONLY way, even so. Just very trustworthy.

    Soo.... Can you start a smaller idler? YES!
    SHOULD BE OK to start a 20 HP.

    But notice my run/balance caps are no longer associated with the starter/control box while your ones still ARE.

    Sooo. yes, you can start it. But "is it a good idea?"
    Maybe not.

    BFD. Just modify it.

    Each of my run/balance cap sets was sized to, and mounted on, ONE specific idler.
    Your ones could be wrong-sized for a 20 HP motor. Or maybe not-so-much.

    A(ny) motor shop as can sort your idler can probably sort ALL of it as well - RPC included. They are not exactly "mysterious" to folks in the trade.

    Wisest to start there. Take the whole rig to the shop. Not just the idler.

    PM community has all the expertise needed to do this any which way but loose,
    BUT... it is awfully TIME consuming to try to sort it "over the internet" when a motor shop can do it faster and actually FIX it.

    Not just play "lets' all guess DIFFERENTLY" ....for the next four weeks ....at what to TELL you about how you MIGHT be able to fix it...

    ..eight different ways,

    ...probably at least ten of which are wrong!


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    Hey, Nylon bolts have their place. Avoiding thermal bridging in coolstores is a common example, and they're also used to provide isolation in some cases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SomeoneSomewhere View Post
    Hey, Nylon bolts have their place. Avoiding thermal bridging in coolstores is a common example, and they're also used to provide isolation in some cases.
    WTF?

    If nylon "avoids thermal bridging" or "provides isolation" how do you explain the attraction physics of panty-hose crotches?

    "Polymer fume fever"?

    "Inductive field electromagnetism"?

    "Ferro-resonant moans"?

    "Bernoulli effect?"

    "Thermal perversion layers"?

    Or maybe just an acquired allergy to coldsores, wool, and Welley-boots.... some things being more "common" on a geographical distribution than others.


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