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4 wire 2 phase motor wiring

Nicholas Bove

Plastic
Joined
Apr 15, 2012
Location
NY. USA
I just acquired a very nice Brown&Sharpe no2L surface grinder, unfortunately come to find out its a 4 wire 220v 2 phase machine, what options do I have to run this on single phase? Is it possible to get this going with large run capacitors? any help with this will be greatly appreciated!
 
You have a oldie, 2 phase went out about ww1 (1915) a motor change would be your best bet, I would love to have the motor but you are too far away, I save the old stuff...Phil
 
Let me dust off some of my older books and get back to you on that. I recall a transformer arrangement for converting two phase to three phase and vise-versa.

EDIT:

Wikipedia to the rescue.

You'll want to look into the Scott 'Tee' connection and a 3 phase VFD. If I recall it requires a center-tapped 1:1 120/240V transformer and a 1:1 208V transformer. Single phase to the VFD, three phase to the transformers, two phase to the motor. ;)

If the motor has dual voltage connections, it will be significantly easier to find 120/240:480V and 208:480V transformers that should work for this application.
 
The date on the original Brown&Sharpe wiring diagram that was in the machine is actually from 1952, its in absolutely fantastic condition (just really dirty) the ways are in great shape and I've indicated the table to be within a couple tenths! The machine dealer plate on it is from Philadelphia, so that explains the 2 phase. I'm in Buffalo NY and I know back in the day we had 2 phase power as well.
Also one problem I have is its got two motors, A 1/4 hp for the table feed and a 1hp for the spindle, the feed motor would be simple to replace, however the spindle motor would probably be difficult.
 
I'd like to hear some of the experts chime in. Two thoughts that came to mind:

1. Aren't servo motors a type of two phase AC motor? Would there have been a reason to put that sort of drive on a grinder in the 50s?

2. Four wire two phase circuits had a 90 degree phase shift. It might be possible to change the motor to function like a capacitor start, capacitor run motor:

From Richardson, "Rotating Electric Machinery and Transformer Technology", 1978 page 502 " The best running condition is when the auxiliary winding is 90 electrical degrees ahead of the running winding.... " And "this means that the motor carries it's load as a two phase motor with balanced pulsating fields." ...and the motor is smoother in operation" "The start capacitor is a short-duty-cycle electrolytic unit with a capacitance value of from 10 to 15 times that of the run capacitor".

But they give no indication of the way to calculate the values needed.

Or this may just show a little knowledge is dangerous.

Edit: And I see Phil beat me to it.
 
I'm not an electrical engineer, but I do know a lot about electronics and electricity in general. I built a phase converter for my shop which runs my leblond and Bridgeport with no problems at all, very fast start up and my idler starts up with a start and run capacitor.
I thought the same thing, why couldn't this be run off my shops single phase 220 panel which is two leads at 180 degrees apart, and then shift those two leads with run capacitors to supply the other two inputs of the motor.
In my opinion this 2 phase 4 wire set up is a misconception, technically speaking isn't it 4 phase?
 
In a standard 1 phase motor the start winding is 90d out of phase and will be disconnected at .66 to .75 %of speed. So all the start cap has to do is a phase shift of 90d but a 2 phase motor the phase shift is the same, but you have to enterize the 2 nd wind all the time. But your voltage will be lower on the shifted phase because of the run cap . This is more than enough to get the motor rolling but your hp will suffer . The 1 hp will be more like a 3/4 hp. The start caps are not to fussy but the run cap might take a little R/D... and a 2 phase is a 2 phase....Phil
 
Phil's comment about measuring the current is important. One of the references I didn't post mentioned that too large a run capacitor can smoke the winding. If it were me, I'd get a current reading for the shifted phase alone. Or both phases separately if you have enough equipment. Design the capacitor so that the currents are balanced?

Don't use a clamp on, that's another thread.. ;-)
 
Two phase is equivalent to 3 phase, that is why they can be converted one to the other with just passive transformers.

Using a capacitor phase shift will kinda work, but has essentially the same issue as a "static phase converter", you lose some motor power.

Another issue is that the optimal size of capacitor is not a constant, but depends on load. So whatever you choose will be wrong for a lot of the motor's power range. And, the capacitor can only provide a real 90 degree shift when there is a lot of voltage drop across it, vs across the load. Otherwise you get a lesser phase shift, and again, reduced power.

The only way to get that large voltage drop is to do like a steelman converter, and run the shift capacitor from a higher voltage, using a boost transformer. In fact, the Steelman system would work.

If you really do not need full power, you can essentially just use one winding to start, and drop it out entirely for running, using just the other winding. That will be very like a static converter, but you will be limited to 50% power.
 
JST summed it up perfectly. The motor's inductive reactance is going to change with mechanical load. With a fixed capacitance in series this means the phase angle is only going to be at 90 degrees at one point in the motor's current curve (if implemented correctly). The rest of the time it will make funny noises and/or generate extra heat since the motor will essentially be fighting itself.

In 3 wire and 4 wire 2-phase systems there are truly only two phases since the 3 wire arrangement has a corner neutral and the 4 wire arrangement has no neutral. With a 5 wire 2-phase system you could technically make that argument since there *is* a center neutral between all 4 lines and all four of them peak 90 degrees from each other. However, any polyphase load is only going to see two phases since they very, very rarely utilize the neutral conductor. If I'm not mistaken, a 4 wire 2 phase motor can run off of either a 3 wire, 4 wire or 5 wire system since they all provide a 90 degree phase shift. Sort of like how a 3 phase motor can be run from either a 3/4 wire delta or 3/4 wire wye system - because motors and transformer primaries (99.95% of the time) do not require or utilize a neutral conductor. (Wye-wye transformers being the notable exception but they're rare for that reason.)

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How about: one of the 90 deg windings becomes a start winding only, w/ start capacitor and a potential relay to disconnect once
started - granted 1/2 the nominal hp, but that might be enough.
 
How about: one of the 90 deg windings becomes a start winding only, w/ start capacitor and a potential relay to disconnect once
started - granted 1/2 the nominal hp, but that might be enough.


You mean just like suggested in post 14 above?
 
I borrowed some capacitors off my phase converter and the feed motor runs the table surprisingly well. I haven't yet been able to test run the spindle because the contactor has a problem with it, also I want to get the stone off it before I test the spindle as I don't know how old it is or if its cracked. It's gonna be trial and error to get the capacitor values optimal, but it is a proof of concept. I appreciate everyone's input on this subject.
 
Just stick a VFD on it an run it open delta. The 30 degree phase mismatch won't derate the motor as much as a run cap will.

A reactively shifted sine wave always fits inside of the original sine wave. To get 90 degrees you can't deliver any voltage. To deliver full voltage you get 0 degrees phase shift. A 45 degree phase shift leaves you with about 70% of the voltage you had, and that's probably about the best you could do with a capacitor.
 








 
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