50 HP rotary, "To pony or not to Pony ?" That........
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  1. #1
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    Default 50 HP rotary, "To pony or not to Pony ?" That........

    OK I have a 50 HP Wye start Delta run Baldor motor
    baldor-50-hp-nameplate.jpg .
    I have 200 amps Inductive ( as per POCO, but more like 160 constant ) going to shop ( 320 amps divided by 2).
    img_20210106_154113882-1-.jpg I am wiring all the power directly to my RPC after going through a Square D QDL 22200 breaker. I am wondering if I just go with the 60 HP capacitor cabinet that has separate run and start caps and potential relay and all the good stuff for $650. Instead, should I go with a 3hp single phase pony motor? I Know I have to use run caps to balance everything.
    I'd like to use a foot pedal belt tensioner arrangement like this guy.
    Rotary Phase Converter to convert single phase 240v to 575v , 3 phase, 575v / 600v / 7.5 hp - YouTube
    I especially plan on using that cam that activates the pony motor via the foot pedal when engaged and would like something that powers up the idler when the pedal is pulled back by return spring. Release the foot pedal when idler up to speed and then engage power to idler. I plan on using 1 way clutch on the Idler shaft. Either way, the RPC is going to be outdoors and I am thinking I can't get a TEFC single phase small HP motor so easily. Can I use the usual cheapie single phase 240 VAC compressor motor outdoors. Its gonna be under a cover, but not climate controlled etc. I wish I could get a car starter to run as the pony and use some kind of flexplate like arrangement and ignition switch to start the whole thing. But don't see how to get the necessary 1700 RPM to idler shaft using that.

    So first question, should I go with start caps or Pony motor considering my amperage. Any suggestions for good pony motor arrangement if that is the better route?

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    I don't think you're going to get many votes for the capacitor cabinet.

    If I was doing this the thing I would design is a mechanism to advance a single phase pony motor spindle to touch a three phase motor spindle.
    Maybe a foot lever with some clutch material riveted to circular discs on each motor shaft. It would also have to look clean and sanitary to pass inspection.
    Last edited by rons; 04-03-2021 at 02:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rons View Post
    I don't think you're going to get many votes for the capacitor cabinet.
    ...
    Heck I was hoping to see the light show in his neighbors' houses when he cranked that thing up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Heck I was hoping to see the light show in his neighbors' houses when he cranked that thing up.
    I have my own transformer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by madmachinst View Post
    I have my own transformer.
    I would go with the pony start for this - suspect you can do it with a single phase motor - 2 hp would probably do it. My 5 hp idler starts easy with a 1/8 hp motor.
    0.125 x 10 = 1.25 hp. 2 to be safe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by madmachinst View Post
    OK I have a 50 HP Wye start Delta run Baldor motor
    baldor-50-hp-nameplate.jpg .
    I have 200 amps Inductive ( as per POCO, but more like 160 constant ) going to shop ( 320 amps divided by 2).
    img_20210106_154113882-1-.jpg I am wiring all the power directly to my RPC after going through a Square D QDL 22200 breaker. I am wondering if I just go with the 60 HP capacitor cabinet that has separate run and start caps and potential relay and all the good stuff for $650. Instead, should I go with a 3hp single phase pony motor? I Know I have to use run caps to balance everything.
    I'd like to use a foot pedal belt tensioner arrangement like this guy.
    Rotary Phase Converter to convert single phase 240v to 575v , 3 phase, 575v / 600v / 7.5 hp - YouTube
    I especially plan on using that cam that activates the pony motor via the foot pedal when engaged and would like something that powers up the idler when the pedal is pulled back by return spring. Release the foot pedal when idler up to speed and then engage power to idler. I plan on using 1 way clutch on the Idler shaft. Either way, the RPC is going to be outdoors and I am thinking I can't get a TEFC single phase small HP motor so easily. Can I use the usual cheapie single phase 240 VAC compressor motor outdoors. Its gonna be under a cover, but not climate controlled etc. I wish I could get a car starter to run as the pony and use some kind of flexplate like arrangement and ignition switch to start the whole thing. But don't see how to get the necessary 1700 RPM to idler shaft using that.

    So first question, should I go with start caps or Pony motor considering my amperage. Any suggestions for good pony motor arrangement if that is the better route?
    Can't do all that much with a 3-P Wye start when it is got to come-alive on single-phase.

    I'd nip the problem in the bud.

    Don't "pony" that motor.

    Peddle it.

    Stagger-start three smaller ones in succession.

    No drama.

    And you can then elect to run any fraction out of the menu, not necessarily the whole team, or not the whole team, all the time. As-in all online only to start a tough load, but one then dropped-off.

    What sort of LOADS have you that NEED 50 HP-worth of idler online?

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    Here is the big item I plan on running with said phase converter
    nameplate.jpg power-plate.jpg and also this little guy
    im001218.jpg

    Thermite when you say " Can't do all that much...." do you mean run equipment or just getting it started.

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    I would say the 50HP is crazy overkill for that. Just a ton of wasted power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by madmachinst View Post
    Here is the big item I plan on running with said phase converter
    nameplate.jpg power-plate.jpg and also this little guy
    im001218.jpg

    Thermite when you say " Can't do all that much...." do you mean run equipment or just getting it started.
    I mean the "somewhat easier" Wye-start feature won't be of any advantage when all you have to feed it with is ONE phase, not three.

    I suspect that your 20 HP load could be started with an RPC built of three 10 HP idlers = 30 idler-HP, would probably run just fine on but two. Because it almost NEVER draws that full 20 HP on the label, if even HALF of it when doing its normal work.


    "You can DO this".

    You are just trying to do it what my Brit side calls the "BFBI" way:
    "Brute Force and Bloody Ignorance"

    - with a single "BFH" to use the US term, Big F****G Hammer" unitary idler.

    If I was optimistic-direction-wrong, I would only have to add a fourth 10 HP idler, total 40 idler-HP, but... would never present any greater than a TEN idler-HP load to my utility mains and service-entrance-panel or other switchgear as STARTING load.

    BFD. That's easy. Very.

    At no time does the starting load of a(ny) staggered-start system hit the incoming line with any more that the ONE largest "chunk".

    We start data-center server RAID hard-drive arrays that way, too. Same reason. Keeping the starting inrush within sane bounds.

    No pony required. Not even a rocking horse or a stuffed teddy bear.

    Only ONE 10-HP-rated capacitor-type starter/control box covers the whole stable.
    Add one "extra" ignorant 3-P contactor per-each supplementary idler.

    No drama.

    Just a brief pause whilst they are brought on-line, one after the other, same as mustering a crew of oarsmen to row a boat or gathering a team to pull on a rope.

    Ever been to a funeral? Six ordinary humans carry a coffin.

    Not one Giant Gorilla that has to be tricked into even bothering to report for work and grab the load, let alone carry it level, not over his shoulder like a rifle.

    The FIRST idler alone would run the BirdPort with plenty of reserve during periods of a workday when it was all that was needed.

    The "supplementary idler" approach has been covered many times. many places. PM but one of several.

    It is simple. Not complicated.

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    Yall starting to make me feel like this guy Al Bundy und die Kaiser - YouTube

    OTOH hand I talked to the seller of RPC control panel and he wasn't willing to guarantee me anything that the panel would run on under 150 amps to get started. All I wanted was guarantee that if the panel will take more start up than that he will pay for the return shipping and refund me. Gave me some story how if I would buy the whole set up from him he would guarantee it to take less than 150 amps for start up. OK, so Pony motor for sure. I wish I had a way to have 25, 15 and 10 HP but don't really have the space for all that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by madmachinst View Post
    Yall starting to make me feel like this guy Al Bundy und die Kaiser - YouTube
    LOL
    "Now yer learnin'"

    Really, really BIG motors are OFTEN among the cheapest to be found, used.

    Really, really optimistic folks pounce on that sort of "bargain".

    Well... Time was, I bought an Angus calf every year, and Myers Virginia Beef charged me to raise it, see to a vet, feed it 'til a healthy yearling steer.

    Which yielded 600 lbs or better of very fine beef!

    But they asked how we wanted it cut up, thickness of steak, percentage of ground beef,, etc.

    And into a big chest-type freezer all those smaller packages went.

    Never crossed my MIND to figure to eat the f**ker all in one bite... surely not whilst he was still grazing, pissing, shitting - still had hooves, hide, horns, and a different plan for the afternoon than being et!

    That 600 odd pounds was NET after all. "On the hoof" was a lot heavier and a different sort of tough or tender.

    "Starting current" is much the same. Challenging to deal with.



    But I'm a VIRGINIAN.

    Not a TEXAN ....or an Argentine!

    So we didn't try to just bite-off "rare" beef as he wandered past the dining table.

    As with those steaks?

    A fifty horse idler is a tad more than the average residential-grade service can see-off in one bite is all. Well. I lie. MORE than just a "tad". Closer to DOUBLE?

    I won't even touch a fifteen HP off 200A service. Ten is the upper-bound of my comfort zone. I get to a nominal 27 HP - if even I need that much - with FOUR idlers. And only run PART of them. To closer match the loads of the hour.

    So cut your "wealth" into bite-sized portions.

    Or choke on hooves, hide, bones, and horns of the uncooperative "treasure" in that single 50 HP "hide".


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    Instead of a belt between two pulleys and tensioner on a clutch that also activates power to pony motor, could I
    A.)just have pony motor attached to the 50 HP via a 1 way sprag clutch so when the pony is active it is turning the idler, but when Idler active not turning the pony? Think that sprag clutch will wear out?
    B.) How about using a potential relay to keep the pony powered up and then throwing it out when the idler is fully running. Will unpowered idler create back EMF just by being rotated at its running speed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by madmachinst View Post
    Instead of a belt between two pulleys and tensioner on a clutch that also activates power to pony motor, could I
    A.)just have pony motor attached to the 50 HP via a 1 way sprag clutch so when the pony is active it is turning the idler, but when Idler active not turning the pony? Think that sprag clutch will wear out?
    B.) How about using a potential relay to keep the pony powered up and then throwing it out when the idler is fully running. Will unpowered idler create back EMF just by being rotated at its running speed?
    Guess you didn't think to get a lawyer to do -up a pre-nup when you married that 50 Horse?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Guess you didn't think to get a lawyer to do -up a pre-nup when you married that 50 Horse?
    NO I am stuck with it and don't have the space for 3 motors and needless to say neither have I got the $$$ to change horses midstream.

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    Quote Originally Posted by madmachinst View Post
    NO I am stuck with it and don't have the space for 3 motors and needless to say neither have I got the $$$ to change horses midstream.
    No fear.

    Drowning is still free when you have more load than you can start to swim with.

    Space?

    It's an RPC. Bad manners as they have? They should not be allowed indoors, anyway!
    Why would one waste scarce shop space when wire exists?

    The Weg was light enough I woz going to put it in the attic. The Reliance Duty-Masters? That won't fly.

    Buggers were cheap as "NOS", never yet connected, because they are cosmetic blems and special-purpose "GX" types, sort of "armoured up", oversize, and waay over-weight..so not generally wanted where they won't even FIT.

    Obsolete code for "shipboard use" I think that is? Good for a life exiled to the "doghouse" anyway.

    Good for idlers, though.

    What was your plan for the pasture, hay, and horsehit disposal for the Pony, anyway?

    Oh. Wait. I did say "peddle" the motor, not "pony".

    So just a bike-helmet, then?


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    In my experience your not going to start that 50 with your given amps available. I run a 50 hp off a 400 amp service. The transformer has to have enough kva also or it wont work. Strange voltages and other problems. With a pony motor you will get by just fine I have a 60 hp motor running as a converter at another location, use a 3 hp motor to spin it up and leave it spin been running like that for 10 plus years no issues. ( no power applied just being turned by the converter motor).


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turbowerks View Post
    ( no power applied just being turned by the converter motor).

    You mean that you don't send L1 and L2 into the idler?

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    Quote Originally Posted by madmachinst View Post
    You mean that you don't send L1 and L2 into the idler?
    Not BEFORE the pony has brought the idler up to speed, no.

    One needs to provide a delay. The delay may be maunaully controlled, determined by sensor, or by a timer.

    I'd recommend the time delay. It's cheap, simple, reliable. and easily adjusted.


    30 years should be just about right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by madmachinst View Post
    You mean that you don't send L1 and L2 into the idler?
    I meant after the idler brings the converter motor up to speed the power is not going to the pony motor anymore, but it is still connected to the converter motor , just along for the ride at that point. Has not caused any problems by spinning free , as somebody pointed out about a pony causing electrical interference.


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    Basically just size this up by a factor of ten. 5 -> 50 and 0.125 -> 1-1/2 and then give it a try and see how it does.

    (you probably want to replace the 2x4s with 6x6 timbers...)



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