Anyone using the newest model of Phase Perfects?

Just wondering if anyone else has the new 3rd generation phase converters from Phase Perfect and if you're running any manual lathes on it?

I don't seem to be getting as good a smooth power out of mine vs my 1st and 2nd gen models, there's a constant pulse/jolt that can be heard and felt on the lathe handles that isn't there with my other models. Like tiny brown outs on 1 leg. It matches up with changes in the PP's "frying bacon" sound too, so its doing something, I just don't know if that's the " new normal " with this new design vs the old ones, maybe its fine but I'm not happy yet. So far it appears I'm on my own to figure this out so I'll soon be trying to test wtf is going on with the oscilloscope, waiting on 1 more tester to arrive for THD on the mains side also.

I, like I'm sure the OP is, am also wanting to hear some feedback from users. I have thought for years about going the digital route.
There appears to be an upgrade in my future soon and some real world feedback would be great.

I have the feeling that machine shops aren't the main buyers of these phase perfects converters anymore.
Sure doesn't seem like many bought the new models yet, its a complete redesign(a lot bigger too, the PT010 is almost 2x the size of my PT-355) I'll get more into that when I have a bit more time.

I've been running a DPC-A10 and PT-355(20hp) since around 2007 or 2008, probably have near 40,000hrs on the old blue unit and its still running every day now. I bought this new PT010(10hp) thinking my old DPC-A10 was near the end but turns out it wasn't and might still have years left in it. I also debated going back to a Rotary instead as they seem to have come along a fair bit but I'm a bit limited on power with only 200A, but now I think maybe I should have given rotary's another try.

Lets just say for now the PT010 hasn't been turned back on in 2 months as I don't trust it to be working 100% right(Hence why I'm hoping to see if anyone else has the same jolt/crappy jolting power issue/humming) and I don't have time to fuck with it anymore.
I should receive the THD meter I ordered next week but I'm so swamped with work 7 days a week I don't know when I'll have time to try to sort this thing out. I sent another inquiry to PP to see if they found anything to filter out more of the feedback noise on the mains after they told me they'd look into it and find something but never heard back in 2 months. I don't understand how the newest model can be sending even more noise/harmonics back down the 1ph side than the previous models(and its a LOT, even the pole transformer I'm on by myself is pissed about it when I turn this thing on). AT least these new ones are supposed to have monitoring of the "filter capacitors" in case they fail, and they're now in a place where its reachable and easy to replace as a unit, previous 2 models are a nightmare for changing the filter caps, that was probably the only bad thing about the 2 previous designs. Maybe this is just how they are, but it sure doesn't give me the fuzzies.
Some of you probably remember wheelieking71's house almost burning down and the $1000's it cost him in repairs when his filters caps failed in his and fried a bunch of things up the line, so I've been extra cautious since.

Also, these new units ship in " Transformer Mode" this is kind of a soft start wanna be thing that drops the T3 voltage a lot when starting. My 7.5hp later was taking 6 seconds to get up to speed, rather an instantaneous and humming a lot trying to get up to speed. First 2 tech support guys sent me on a goose chase because of course the problem had to be on my end, I guess they didn't know this was a new feature on these models... until finally it made up high enough the food chain to find out its a program and it had to be switched to Elevator Mode for it to not drop voltage. So that fixed that. I have the feeling the jolting/humming pulse I'm getting is the program in there trying to constantly sense and adjust T3 but that'll be hard to prove. Either way I'm not running my manual lathe on it until that's sorted out, maybe I'll have to try to run it through a delta/wye to try to smooth out its power output? anyway, first thing will be to sort out the mains feedback. If this is perfectly normal of these new models, well its not a step forward as far as I'm concerned.

Really temped to just throw it back in the box and sell it to the next sucker than mess with it anymore.

And here I was thinking old blue 10HP is coming to an end soon - it was bought new in 2005. Never any issues.

johnoder said:

And here I was thinking old blue 10HP is coming to an end soon - it was bought new in 2005. Never any issues.

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My 20hp American Rotary RPC is pushing 20 years old. Flawless and it has not even once tried to burn my house down. Seems like there is a lot of issues with those things, none for me, thanks.

We closed on this place 30 years ago today. So my 5 hp home made rotary's been solid for about 30 years now. Maybe i should give the bearings a shot of grease in a few years.

I bought a 2nd gen 10hp unit last fall from a guy that had just replaced it with a 3rd gen 20hp unit when he got his 2nd Brother. He was happy with it. Like you I picked it up as a backup for my early 2004 10hp pp that just keeps working flawlessly. It was a good price and local so hard to pass up.

I am considering trying to find a low hours Gen 2 in the 20-30hp range in case my PT-355 did quit, though I'm also gonna look a lot more into a rotary as a back up. My first experience with Rotary hadn't been good but I must have had one with something wrong there too as it was a lot louder than the once I see on youtube that appear pretty quiet, they seem to have updated the designs a lot also in the last 13+years.

My setup is pretty simple. I'm at the end of a long driveway and on my own pole transformer. 400A goes to the house to 2x 200A SquareD QO panels and 1x200A SquareD QO panel to the detached shop.

When I moved the machines to the detached shop a few years ago I noticed when the PT-355 was running I could hear the same frying bacon found when I stood by the panels in the house, I can also hear it in my induction cooktop and microvave but its fairly minor and when I run the cnc's that are on the PT-355 I simply flip the cooktop breaker off and it all goes quiet and fine.

When I got this new 3rd gen unit turned On I went to take a listen to the 2 panels in the house thinking they'd be very quiet, and I was quite shocked to hear they were buzzing very loud(similar pitch to the IGBT) and turning the cooktop breaker off made zero difference. Then went outside and noticed the pole transformer was buzzing very loud also(no such thing with my 2 older units), turned PT010 off, back to quiet, On again, with zero load and its loud again.

So there's definitely something going on and I expected these new units to have better noise filtering than the previous models, not worse(at least for this model), unless the new design just switched more of the noise to an audible level? I can't get an answer out of them...
Anyway I put a 100A Line Reactor I had here in front of it and it cut the majority of the noise at the house panels. Transformer still doesn't sound super happy though and I worry this noise could feedback into the HV line and back down to other neighbors if its a dV/dT problem. I hope the THD meter I got coming that reads to the 25th harmonic will help me find out what's going on, and putting the scope on it too. Maybe I need to size another Line reactor closer to the 50A size, or get a dV/DT reactor. I try to fix that worse then see what can be done about the pulsating problem at the lathe if I don't just get rid of it.

A neighbor who's worked in electronics/radars his whole life told me a few years ago while I was talking to him about some IBGT noise I was trying to reduce, that film capacitors are not much good at filtering high khz harmonics. But with the number of other pieces of equipment that use IGBT's today and that I never heard feed back any noise, I don't understand why these still have so much of it feeding back. they're supposed to meet the IEEE 519 standards and I can only assume they do and that they put quite a bit of work into it but I still find it hard to believe this noise is acceptable, many may never notice it though or not know where its coming from but I know for sure that a few others have.

One thing I noticed in the new design of at least this 10hp model is the older models had 2 IGBT's, I only see 1 in this new unit. Previous models like my PT-355 had 2 transformers in the back(Sine filter/transformer I assume to smooth out the generated wave), this new one only has 1. Old blue had 3 transformers in the back but difference design, I assume still to smooth the T3 sine wave though.

DavidScott said:

I bought a 2nd gen 10hp unit last fall from a guy that had just replaced it with a 3rd gen 20hp unit when he got his 2nd Brother. He was happy with it. Like you I picked it up as a backup for my early 2004 10hp pp that just keeps working flawlessly. It was a good price and local so hard to pass up.

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If you ever talk to that guy again could you please ask him if when he turns it off. Does it just make 1 click off like the old ones, or does his randomly sound like a handful of fire crackers going off in there? I assumed its many switches going off, but then other times I only here the 1 main click like my older 2 units. I didn't get any answer from them on that either and if its normal and why its random, maybe 50/50 I'd say.

Film capacitors come in many flavors, with differing characteristics.

One, the connection is at the end of the strips of capacitor "plate", which are then wound up with insulating film between. Those are relatively ineffective at higher frequencies.

The other is wound up the same way, only the connection is not made first. instead, it is made by shorting all the turns of one "plate" by either a wire across them, or "spray metallizing" the end after rolling up. The other plate is handled the same way at the opposite end. That type is much better at high frequencies.

There are also types made by stacking the "plates" and insulation, usually then shorting the plates of each side by spray metallizing in the same way as with the rolled type. Those tend to be better than either of the others.

The typical "can type" film capacitor such as a motor run capacitor is usually pretty much like the first type, and is not much good for higher frequencies. (The paper and oil type motor run capacitors are basically the same)

JST said:

Film capacitors come in many flavors, with differing characteristics.

One, the connection is at the end of the strips of capacitor "plate", which are then wound up with insulating film between. Those are relatively ineffective at higher frequencies.

The other is wound up the same way, only the connection is not made first. instead, it is made by shorting all the turns of one "plate" by either a wire across them, or "spray metallizing" the end after rolling up. The other plate is handled the same way at the opposite end. That type is much better at high frequencies.

There are also types made by stacking the "plates" and insulation, usually then shorting the plates of each side by spray metallizing in the same way as with the rolled type. Those tend to be better than either of the others.

The typical "can type" film capacitor such as a motor run capacitor is usually pretty much like the first type, and is not much good for higher frequencies. (The paper and oil type motor run capacitors are basically the same)

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How do you figure out what to buy when replacing them in our PPs?

DavidScott said:

How do you figure out what to buy when replacing them in our PPs?

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You are pretty much restricted to what fits, and what the units had that were tested and UL recognized.

Substituting would require at least some design work, and probably voids the UL. That choice should have been optimized at PP.

JST said:

You are pretty much restricted to what fits, and what the units had that were tested and UL recognized.

Substituting would require at least some design work, and probably voids the UL. That choice should have been optimized at PP.

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Out of curiosity here is a photo showing the new capacitors I got to replace the originals in ol blue, and a photo of where they are hidden in the back. Any idea how these capacitors are made?

DavidScott said:

Out of curiosity here is a photo showing the new capacitors I got to replace the originals in ol blue, and a photo of where they are hidden in the back. Any idea how these capacitors are made?

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Those look like garden variety motor run capacitors, so they are almost certainly the type where there are connection tabs (terminals) on the end of the plates, which are then rolled up with insulating material to fit in the case. The tabs are then connected to the external connectors, with one going through an internal fuse.

If so, then their capacitance at EMI noise frequencies will be more-or-less "undefined", as they are not made for that purpose. I've never tried to characterize one, I don't have the instrumentation to do it the right way.

Short story is that they will be a capacitor at low frequencies, with fairly low effects of inductance and resistance. As the frequency increases, the total impedance will be mostly capacitive, and will go down to a minimum (the "ESR") at the self-resonant frequency. Above that the impedance will "flip" to be inductive (!) and will rise with frequency.

The actual characteristics MAY be published if you look up the part. But I do not know what range of frequencies the data will cover. It may show the self resonant frequency.

Aw, gee - reading your saga with this bit. That's rough. It's not at all the kind of experience drive makers want their users to experience. People who may some day be spec'ing eq on a larger scale. Even so, each unit sold should match a reasonable level of satisfaction. Sounds like you got a turkey! Will they not take it back? Make noise!

I've seen several similar articles to this one, worth a gander: Top 10 Players in Variable Frequency Drive (VFD) Market

I don't have a big application for 3-phase: one 5hp bandsaw that's not in service yet, and several 1.5 to 2hp machines whose motors may be replaced in the 1-2 years. Considering 3-phase for all of them. As such, did some reading and also talked to 2 different rotary companies. They both consistently wanted to oversell me, but both were responsive. I think with a bit of push, I'd consider cobbling one up given the pricing I'm seeing on the components! It'd be cheaper than a vfd from cheena. But you have the noise and constant power use to consider, and using the power creates heat.

One thing I'd look out for - the one you have that's creating harmonic feedback is in violation and could costya

JST said:

Those look like garden variety motor run capacitors, so they are almost certainly the type where there are connection tabs (terminals) on the end of the plates, which are then rolled up with insulating material to fit in the case. The tabs are then connected to the external connectors, with one going through an internal fuse.

If so, then their capacitance at EMI noise frequencies will be more-or-less "undefined", as they are not made for that purpose. I've never tried to characterize one, I don't have the instrumentation to do it the right way.

Short story is that they will be a capacitor at low frequencies, with fairly low effects of inductance and resistance. As the frequency increases, the total impedance will be mostly capacitive, and will go down to a minimum (the "ESR") at the self-resonant frequency. Above that the impedance will "flip" to be inductive (!) and will rise with frequency.

The actual characteristics MAY be published if you look up the part. But I do not know what range of frequencies the data will cover. It may show the self resonant frequency.

Click to expand...

The dirty old capacitor at the top of the photo is one of the originals that I replaced.

DavidScott said:

The dirty old capacitor at the top of the photo is one of the originals that I replaced.

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Not a thing with regard to impedance on the data sheet. The self resonance may be in the low kHz range, possibly in the "audio" range.

So will not be particularly good for EMI filtering. If it was, they would say so for sure.

There may be other capacitors in some form of filter in there. Or not. Was there an option for better filtering?

Scoll down a page or two on this:

http://www.cde.com/resources/catalogs/6.002-6.017.pdf

I received the new tester (AEMC 407) a few days ago and just did the THD% test, this tester goes to 25th harmonic. Total of all was at 2.6% which is perfectly fine, 3rd is around 1.9% and 5th 1.5% 7th 0.5% and 0-0.1 on all the rest, this is just with PT010 turned on and nothing running. When I hook machines back on it in a few weeks I'll recheck with a load, but odds are that's working just fine and well within the specs.
I'm thinking to THD test the other 2 PP's I got too, and it may help notice if the Filter Caps start to get old on those units, only changed them once(PITA!!!) but the old were still testing fine for capacitance. New PT model are much easier to check as it has terminals right on the filter caps board and is supposed to know/monitor if there's a failure so that's a nice upgrade anyway.

So as was kinda expected its just some IGBT/EMI noise(whatever khz these new ones switch at?) making it back into the mains like the previous model. Perhaps this new PT design/IGBT is closer to the hz/khz range that resonates more with things like QO breakers and my pole transformer in a more, or louder audible range than the previous models?

Anyhow the RL-10001 (100A 1.5%) line reactor I put in front of it appears to be knocking down practically all of it(as good as I can hear anyway) House panels/breakers are quiet with it on the input side, cooktop doesn't seem to buzz like it does without it(and with the 2 other older PP's) and if I sized a smaller line reactor properly for it and in the 3% or 5% range it would probably get it all. I may do that and put this RL-10001 on the PT-355 as I had initially intended, but my utility room is getting super cramped.
I know a few others had feedback noise issues on the mains too, microwaves don't like it much, another guy on youtube put a video of it and how it was acting with his cooktop too, line reactors seem to do the trick. I'll consider my feedback noise issues solved for now.

Next thing I got to learn is how to properly use my oscilloscope. I still need to figure out why I get a weird pulse on the bigger 7.5hp lathe. I can't notice it on the manual mill(3hp) and my other smaller manual lathe is VFD(HLV-H copy) so it filters that out and runs fine. But on the manual lathe its effing annoying, so I'll keep running on my old DPC-A10 untl I have more time to play with that and put the scope on it properly. Maybe need to add reactor or transformer on that side too to smooth it out some more.

JST said:

Not a thing with regard to impedance on the data sheet. The self resonance may be in the low kHz range, possibly in the "audio" range.

So will not be particularly good for EMI filtering. If it was, they would say so for sure.

There may be other capacitors in some form of filter in there. Or not. Was there an option for better filtering?

Scoll down a page or two on this:

http://www.cde.com/resources/catalogs/6.002-6.017.pdf

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No option for better filtering on the old ones.

DavidScott said:

No option for better filtering on the old ones.

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No, they did not meet EMI/RFI requirements, I am told.

But the new one seems to be doing even worse.... I figured there had to be a better filter available on the new ones.