Wade C
Stainless
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2004
- Location
- Wiggins CO. USA
Im still learning, and have been reading and trying to absorb as much as I can... but wanted some additional input from those who have been through it and/or know much more about this stuff than I do.
The scenario: (caution fairly long prelude to the questions at hand)
We are going to likely be signing on a place here next week. Decent place, nice location, girl friend is happy with the house, location, and property... Down side, there isnt a nice shop... so that will be an upcoming project. Currently, there are 3ph poles on the property, and from what I have learned, it wont be that bad cost wise to get 3ph brought in to the shop once we get that far.
There is a "garage" on the property, that by my measurements, will be able to house the Okuma LC10 and Fadal 4020, as well as the couple 3ph manual machines I have.... and leave some working space... though I really hope putting up a shop is a sooner rather than later thing - but its really hard to say.
The place we will put the shop is all but 20-50 feet from the 3ph poles on the property. Depending on "codes" and "rules" we could put the shop as close to the pole as allowed by the easements/utilities. The "garage" is about 150-200 feet north of where the shop would go, and is about 150 feet from the 3ph lines, but the single phase pole is right next to the garage.
I basically have three options, and the bank will be the deciding factor on one of those three.
(keep in mind, Im a small time guy, making my own products and should be able to keep up with demand which ever way I go - just one option equates to a lot more driving and time away from home)
1 - leave the machines where they are now until we are able to put up a shop. ( They are in a friends shop now) which will be two and a half hours away from the house, and just arrange things so that I can go out to the machines, work a few days, and come back home. (he doesnt charge me rent, but I do some stuff for him -work/manual labor- to balance out having the machines there and the little bit of electricity I use)
2 - wiggle the machines into the "garage" so that everything is in one place - and have 3ph brought into that for the short term, until a shop is built, and then move the equip and service once the shop is done... could be up to a year Id guess - depending.
3 - go hell bent on getting the shop done, (basically anything we can do to get the shop done this summer - borrowing from friends and family to get it done if the bank wont do it) so that there is no secondary move of the machines, or relocating of the service in etc...
So now I am formulating my plan on what to do based on the most cost effective approach... as well as get a feel for things that are "okay" to do, and things that are "bad juju"
My initial thought is to poke the machines in the current "garage" so that I have everything in one location. But that begs the question, how to handle bringing in power. If I went with a phase converter (like a phase perfect) for the short term, I still have to contend with upgrading the single phase service, as its only 100 amp service to the entire property (which will cost) and then selling - or getting my self to sell - the phase perfect later in addition to the cost of getting it in the first place. Or getting 3 phase to the garage, knowing that it will be short term... and have to be moved, along with the machines when a shop does happen. I had one thought, but I dont know if its a kosher "idea". And that is to have 3ph installed on the pole where the shop will eventually be, brought down to a meter, and a disconnect box. Then get an "extension cord" of sorts... a temporary heavy line that goes from the disconnect box to the garage on the ground (down side here is how large the cable will have to be, and would be likely major overkill to use for in-shop wiring). And basically unroll it, and roll it up each day that I need to use either of the CNCs (definitely manageable as I dont use these machines every day - yet). I guess in some ways I think of this like what you guys might call a Buss line? My thought is, when the new shop goes up, I could then use that line inside the shop for getting power from the panel to the various machines and such. (trying to basically buy something to use for the "extension cord" that could later be used on the wiring install). But I could also see that being a huge no-no... repetitive use of the terminals in the box to connect/disconnect the cable over time, in addition to wear on the cable from being laid/rolled up somewhat regularly.
Another idea was to have the service installed where the shop will be, and then have poles and above ground lines to get it to the garage for now, and later have that taken down and piped into the shop. But I dont know that "above ground" entry of service is okay. I could see it going either way... code requiring coming in under ground, or being fine coming in the side of the building up near the roof.
Could always have them extend the 3ph to the pole by the garage, and install there, but then when the new shop goes up, it would mean moving the cans and meter, or fighting the same issue of getting it from there to the new shop. This seems it would be the most expensive because the utility company charges for everything they do. (unlike where I am now, where they give you a 2600.00 credit on a new service install. After the 2600, you pay. Up to 2600 they cover)
The final idea I had, but seemingly second to most expensive, (but may not be) is to have the service installed on the pole where the shop will be, have a "junction box" of sorts where the power would come up for the new shop, and then trench it from there to the garage (which will have to either cross, or go the long way around the water lines/well/septic to the house). Leaving a permanent install to the garage. Then when the shop gets built, either tie into that service (knowing that 3ph wouldnt get used in the garage once the shop is up, but at least have the power there, should it ever be needed) and "share it" with the new shop, or just disconnect the garage and connect the shop. Part of me thought it might be handy having 3ph in both places once the new shop is up... but Id imagine there are code rules that would be broken with that idea.
The whole situation is less than ideal in a lot of ways... but on the plus side... 3ph will be cheaper than a PP unit (at least getting it down the pole to a meter), and, Mama is happy... and we all know if Mama aint happy, aint nobody happy.
Any opinions on what I might think about doing are greatly appreciated... And Im sure there are flaws in all of my ideas... so Im hoping the process of getting opinions, Ill also learn a lot. Im guessing the best thing to do is going to be the hardest thing to afford... build the shop, install the service, move the machines, and be done... the catch is getting the money, as a bank will surely be very hesitant with the recent house purchase and debt/income ratio, and I dont know that I have enough friends/family with deep enough pockets to help. I have some stuff going on on my side of things that makes the financing hard if not impossible with me involved, so despite having the ability to service the debt, the banks wont take that into account until its had a year of track record... So, like everyone, Im trying to do the most with the least, and dont have the financial backing I should to do anything.
And if I leave stuff where it is and wait, I think Ill "stunt my growth" because Ill have so much driving (time and fuel cost) to get to the machines, that Ill have to slow the pace down so I can effectively use my time. Having all the machines right there, so I can do what ever, when ever is the end goal, but I realize, I may have to be patient, and wait a bit to attain that goal.
Sorry for the novel, but felt it was all pertinent info to the questions at hand.
Thanks
Wade
The scenario: (caution fairly long prelude to the questions at hand)
We are going to likely be signing on a place here next week. Decent place, nice location, girl friend is happy with the house, location, and property... Down side, there isnt a nice shop... so that will be an upcoming project. Currently, there are 3ph poles on the property, and from what I have learned, it wont be that bad cost wise to get 3ph brought in to the shop once we get that far.
There is a "garage" on the property, that by my measurements, will be able to house the Okuma LC10 and Fadal 4020, as well as the couple 3ph manual machines I have.... and leave some working space... though I really hope putting up a shop is a sooner rather than later thing - but its really hard to say.
The place we will put the shop is all but 20-50 feet from the 3ph poles on the property. Depending on "codes" and "rules" we could put the shop as close to the pole as allowed by the easements/utilities. The "garage" is about 150-200 feet north of where the shop would go, and is about 150 feet from the 3ph lines, but the single phase pole is right next to the garage.
I basically have three options, and the bank will be the deciding factor on one of those three.
(keep in mind, Im a small time guy, making my own products and should be able to keep up with demand which ever way I go - just one option equates to a lot more driving and time away from home)
1 - leave the machines where they are now until we are able to put up a shop. ( They are in a friends shop now) which will be two and a half hours away from the house, and just arrange things so that I can go out to the machines, work a few days, and come back home. (he doesnt charge me rent, but I do some stuff for him -work/manual labor- to balance out having the machines there and the little bit of electricity I use)
2 - wiggle the machines into the "garage" so that everything is in one place - and have 3ph brought into that for the short term, until a shop is built, and then move the equip and service once the shop is done... could be up to a year Id guess - depending.
3 - go hell bent on getting the shop done, (basically anything we can do to get the shop done this summer - borrowing from friends and family to get it done if the bank wont do it) so that there is no secondary move of the machines, or relocating of the service in etc...
So now I am formulating my plan on what to do based on the most cost effective approach... as well as get a feel for things that are "okay" to do, and things that are "bad juju"
My initial thought is to poke the machines in the current "garage" so that I have everything in one location. But that begs the question, how to handle bringing in power. If I went with a phase converter (like a phase perfect) for the short term, I still have to contend with upgrading the single phase service, as its only 100 amp service to the entire property (which will cost) and then selling - or getting my self to sell - the phase perfect later in addition to the cost of getting it in the first place. Or getting 3 phase to the garage, knowing that it will be short term... and have to be moved, along with the machines when a shop does happen. I had one thought, but I dont know if its a kosher "idea". And that is to have 3ph installed on the pole where the shop will eventually be, brought down to a meter, and a disconnect box. Then get an "extension cord" of sorts... a temporary heavy line that goes from the disconnect box to the garage on the ground (down side here is how large the cable will have to be, and would be likely major overkill to use for in-shop wiring). And basically unroll it, and roll it up each day that I need to use either of the CNCs (definitely manageable as I dont use these machines every day - yet). I guess in some ways I think of this like what you guys might call a Buss line? My thought is, when the new shop goes up, I could then use that line inside the shop for getting power from the panel to the various machines and such. (trying to basically buy something to use for the "extension cord" that could later be used on the wiring install). But I could also see that being a huge no-no... repetitive use of the terminals in the box to connect/disconnect the cable over time, in addition to wear on the cable from being laid/rolled up somewhat regularly.
Another idea was to have the service installed where the shop will be, and then have poles and above ground lines to get it to the garage for now, and later have that taken down and piped into the shop. But I dont know that "above ground" entry of service is okay. I could see it going either way... code requiring coming in under ground, or being fine coming in the side of the building up near the roof.
Could always have them extend the 3ph to the pole by the garage, and install there, but then when the new shop goes up, it would mean moving the cans and meter, or fighting the same issue of getting it from there to the new shop. This seems it would be the most expensive because the utility company charges for everything they do. (unlike where I am now, where they give you a 2600.00 credit on a new service install. After the 2600, you pay. Up to 2600 they cover)
The final idea I had, but seemingly second to most expensive, (but may not be) is to have the service installed on the pole where the shop will be, have a "junction box" of sorts where the power would come up for the new shop, and then trench it from there to the garage (which will have to either cross, or go the long way around the water lines/well/septic to the house). Leaving a permanent install to the garage. Then when the shop gets built, either tie into that service (knowing that 3ph wouldnt get used in the garage once the shop is up, but at least have the power there, should it ever be needed) and "share it" with the new shop, or just disconnect the garage and connect the shop. Part of me thought it might be handy having 3ph in both places once the new shop is up... but Id imagine there are code rules that would be broken with that idea.
The whole situation is less than ideal in a lot of ways... but on the plus side... 3ph will be cheaper than a PP unit (at least getting it down the pole to a meter), and, Mama is happy... and we all know if Mama aint happy, aint nobody happy.
Any opinions on what I might think about doing are greatly appreciated... And Im sure there are flaws in all of my ideas... so Im hoping the process of getting opinions, Ill also learn a lot. Im guessing the best thing to do is going to be the hardest thing to afford... build the shop, install the service, move the machines, and be done... the catch is getting the money, as a bank will surely be very hesitant with the recent house purchase and debt/income ratio, and I dont know that I have enough friends/family with deep enough pockets to help. I have some stuff going on on my side of things that makes the financing hard if not impossible with me involved, so despite having the ability to service the debt, the banks wont take that into account until its had a year of track record... So, like everyone, Im trying to do the most with the least, and dont have the financial backing I should to do anything.
And if I leave stuff where it is and wait, I think Ill "stunt my growth" because Ill have so much driving (time and fuel cost) to get to the machines, that Ill have to slow the pace down so I can effectively use my time. Having all the machines right there, so I can do what ever, when ever is the end goal, but I realize, I may have to be patient, and wait a bit to attain that goal.
Sorry for the novel, but felt it was all pertinent info to the questions at hand.
Thanks
Wade
