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Common Neutral connection

Froneck

Titanium
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Location
McClure, PA 17059
I don't want this to become Political and the subject is a bit off topic I guess. Moderator can delete this if it violets any rules!
Looking at the Power poles in my city I noticed they have a Neutral wire strung about 4' below the High line. 3 phase or 1 wire high line transformers are connected to Neutral for single phase applications. Neutral is grounded at every pole there is a Transformer and might be grounded on all poles! I also noticed it was the same in surrounding cities but don't know if that is country wide. I'm thinking there is a hard wire entering every home, business or Government building that is unprotected.
Would it be possible for a computer hacker to use the Neutral to enter every computer? Maybe a Hidden "Modem" intended to use ground/neutral so as to be able to gain access to the computer can easily by pass security since it didn't come thru the internet connection especially if there wasn't a connection?
 
That's most likely not a neutral wire. The neutral is created inside the transformer. You also can't use a power carrying conductor to enter a computer in this way.
 
All of the ac power wiring entering a computer goes into a switch-mode power supply that outputs several dc voltages. There are electrolytic capacitors on the 300v input side (rectified 240v or rectified "bootstrapped" 120v) and more on the low voltage (5v or 3.3v) main output that powers the logic.

Even worse for that "infiltrate by neutral" scenario is that many computers, including mine, first send the ac power through an Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS) where there are even more filter caps and a battery.

To get a sneaky binary signal past that maze of filtering and converting might be possible but probably only under very idealized conditions.

That is why the major road to infection is via files that are downloaded either via email or websites.

PS: A major gateway for hackers is via wifi, which is why I don't use it.
 
That's most likely not a neutral wire. The neutral is created inside the transformer. You also can't use a power carrying conductor to enter a computer in this way.

I assume you mean a transformer in the computer. Since power transformers have Center tap/Neutral grounded. The Neutral will be connected to the chassis of the computer via the ground on a typical 3 wire 120VAC plug. I'm not that familiar with how low voltage is made in the computer but if a transformer is used and one side either center tap or corner is grounded then any isolation is eliminated. Also if some type of spy "modem" is built into computer circuitry or attached via USB it can be accessed thru the Neutral/ground yet no internet connection is needed or wireless carrier detected. In other words the ground being connected to the Neutral is hard wired to all buildings in my surrounding cities as well to all that have the Neutral on the power pole.
 
I assume you mean a transformer in the computer. Since power transformers have Center tap/Neutral grounded. The Neutral will be connected to the chassis of the computer via the ground on a typical 3 wire 120VAC plug. I'm not that familiar with how low voltage is made in the computer but if a transformer is used and one side either center tap or corner is grounded then any isolation is eliminated. Also if some type of spy "modem" is built into computer circuitry or attached via USB it can be accessed thru the Neutral/ground yet no internet connection is needed or wireless carrier detected. In other words the ground being connected to the Neutral is hard wired to all buildings in my surrounding cities as well to all that have the Neutral on the power pole.

As I said before, no 60Hz transformer. The input is rectified to create a roughly 300vdc primary. For 120v input a diode/capacitor voltage doubler setup is used. How 300 from 240v? 240v is the RMS value and the input capacitors charge to the peak rectified voltage.

The 300vdc is then used to rapidly switch the voltage on the primary of a high frequency multi output transformer (much smaller and lighter than a 60Hz unit). Usually the regulation is set to control the main logic power output and other outputs such as + or - 12vdc have looser regulation. The outputs feed capacitor banks that smooth and stabilize the outputs.
 
The premise of this thread is based in a cloud of 'what ifs' and lack of background knowledge.

What exactly are you asking? Whether the building's power circuit can be used for communication? Whether computers can be 'hacked' via a power line? Whether computers have spyware built into them?

Power circuits can be used for communication, yes. Zellweger ripples are commonly injected into utility power networks to control 'saver switches' to perform load shedding of air conditioning equipment during periods of heavy load. These ripples can be detected and acted upon by a receiving relay regardless of transformer isolation.


Computers cannot be hacked via a power line unless infrastructure is deliberately created for said computer to interface with the AC power line as a communication network. That would be like expecting a '57 Bel Aire to pair with your Bluetooth phone - impossible unless the technology is deliberately engineered and installed to enable such.

As to whether computers have spyware built into them? Quite simply yes. Microsoft, Apple, Google and your ISP all collect and store information regarding your computer activities. Windows 10 for instance phones home periodically to report usage information, whereas Google collects information regarding your browsing and shopping habits to deliver targeted advertizing. Your ISP keeps a record of your online activity as needed to comply with police subpoenas. Simply put, if your computer is connected to the internet then people know what you are doing with/on it. Not necessarily you as a person, but most certainly you as 'user #825856121'.
 
Yes I know the power lines can be used as shown in the Zellweger video, Simplex clocks could detect a pulse put on the power line so all clocks would advance to the same time every day. But I'm thinking about the Neutral that is common in the entire power supply in my city and all the nearby cities. There is no high voltage and it would be easy to use it for communication. I don't know how far the common connection is. I haven been looking at High Voltage transmission towers but do remember one I seen that had along with the 3 high lines another that had no insulator.
Something like an uninterruptible power supply has a ground plug that is coupled directly to the output so it would bypass all filtering. I worked on Multiplex systems where we could transmit quite a bit of information via a dedicated pair from the phone company. Would not take much to use a single wire.
 
Possibly it would be a little tough to put out a signal on a wire that is grounded at thousands of poles in the area.

A "signal" has to be either transmitted as an electromagnetic propagating field via an antenna, meaning "radio", or transmitted by wire. Transmission by wire is generally with respect to something else.... another wire, ground, etc, since it takes some method of returning the current to the source.

One could transmit the signal on another wire vs neutral. That is the same thing as saying vs ground, since the neutral is grounded.

Transmitting over the neutral itself could not very well be vs ground, since the neutral is grounded already.

Then the getting of the signal through the various filters in the poser supply of a computer is pretty tough. Most filters are somewhat bidirectional, meaning that they filter what comes in as well as what goes out. Computers are regulated as to how much can get out, and the limit is very low. That really cuts what can get in as well.

If you even got it through, what is "it"? "It" would have to somehow affect the code execution....how would that happen in a way that does not screw up everything and become very obvious? This rabbithole requires so many added explanations that it rapidly becomes clear that there are far better methods.

Generally this idea is approaching tinfoil hat territory. Better to be concerned about other means of entry.

Get a decent firewall. Zonealarm has been pretty good, and at least used to have a free version. The pay-for version seems to be a bit friendlier as far as not slowing things down, and being easier to configure.
 
As mentioned, the neutral conductor alone is not suited to transmission. Neutral conductors are solidly grounded in most cases, meaning it will tend to stay at or near ground potential in spite of any ground-referenced potential being applied to it. Even if you were able to apply enough current to raise the voltage of the neutral an appreciable degree (a short-circuit magnitude event unless at radio frequency or something), the ungrounded conductors are referenced to the neutral - meaning that the relative voltage between line and neutral will tend to remain unchanged. In other words, the computer's power supply would see nothing since it operates from line to neutral, not ground to neutral. In order for a signal to be efficiently transmitted over power conductors, it has to be applied between an ungrounded conductor and a grounded one, or two ungrounded conductors. Applying power between equipment ground and the grounded circuit conductor is folly.

Nonetheless even if you had physical access to the input terminals of a computer's PSU, you still wouldn't be able to 'hack' it in the traditional sense. That's like saying you might be able to 'hack' an induction motor via it's power terminals. There is nothing there 'intelligent' enough to be hacked! You might as well try to convince your dog that the extended warranty on his car has expired and is in need of immediate 'renewal'. It's an exercise in futility.

There are far easier ways of causing grief to someone using their own power lines and/or equipment than futilely trying to 'hack' their computers via X10 protocol or the like.
 
I'm being a bit cryptic in that I don't want to get into politics as I mentioned in my first post. Adding that to computers it's not hard to see the coupling. But again I do not want to discuss the issue but rather the possibility it could occur by using the hard wired Neutral that is connected to ground in various places.
Grounding does nothing, earth ground is a lousy resistive return to anything connected to it. But a wire connected to a ground rod in various places is resistive to the limit of the resistance of the wire. If I were to check the resistance of my computer case to the ground rod on the power pole it will be no greater than the resistance of the wire. Therefor it will become a good conductor for a signal. Even radio transmissions can be detected via ground rather than an above ground antenna. Eric Dollard has demonstrated this but tuning into a radio station in China with the use of a connection to a Fire Hydrant as an antenna. I'm sure a device can be hidden in computer design to communicate thru the grounded Neutral. Granted an isolated 5VDC supply can be gotten via a 5VAC winding on a transformer but a surreptitously designed device can be secretly built into the chip that can transmit the information using the Neutral/ground wire.
My question; Is the entire grid Neutral/ground hard wired?
 
Eh.....

Ground rods are "good" if they are at maximum 25 ohm resistance to ground. FAR higher than wire, so no, the wire is not the limiting factor.

A LOT of them in parallel are of course lower, and there the wire resistance can get to be effective.

That works two ways... propagating something on neutral against ground, with a lot of resistors of 25 ohms to ground, even counting inductance, most of your power is going to go into that ground connection, and in a few poles distance, it's effectively gone.

Built into WHAT chip?

Have to be something in the power supply, and the FCC testing would reveal it.

BTW, ground is used as a return in many places out in the sticks.... Australia comes to mind

Back away from the tinfoil, slowly and keep your hands in sight!
 
So what you're really after here is a surreptitious discussion on whether or not Chinese hackers are/theoretically could use a mythical neutral conductor that is continuous across the entire nation to discreetly spy on select computers by first gaining physical access to plant specially constructed data-over-power modems in-line with existing CAT 5/6 lines to intercept private communications?

If not an RJ-45 port on the machine, then USB or PCI-E - which would require administrator permissions to install special drivers for said modem to function and would be readily detectable by physical presence? That is, unless the machine is opened up for installation on a spare USB or PCI-E header that just 'happens' to be open and waiting there in surplus for just such a purpose?

Or in lieu of all that, using physical spyware built into the computer PSU at assembly and connected to the motherboard, again either via RJ-45, PCI-E or USB?

If all of those very stretched 'what ifs' are a 'yes', then sure.

But with certain politicians' history of shoddy E-mail practices it's more likely that our own government will do the Chinese intel guys' jobs for them without forcing them to go to such extreme lengths.

A greater and more immediate danger in my mind is the Internet of Things. For instance, hospital generator sets that have no business being interfaced with the internet but in fact are, ostensibly because some yuppie engineerling thought it would be neat to be able to control the hospital's power infrastructure via smart phone and some hospital admin got upsold on it.

 
Some IOT and other "connected" items have already been observed to have chinese spyware in them. Dumped it on your computer when connected.

THAT is not mythical maybe stuff.

"Photo frames" were one of the items. You load photos and the frame slideshows them continuously.
 
We constantly here of large systems being hacked, one just a while ago was the pipeline shut down. I'll bet they had the best protection money can buy. But still got hacked! What a hacker can gain from my computer and many of us here is small and would not be of any interest to a large country! The small fry hacker looks for ways to use something in a computer chip or program design so as to gain access to a computer as JST pointed out in a photo. During WW2 computers were developed with large sums of government money so as to crack the Enigma Code the Germans were using. It's not a major leap to think a large government that has billions of dollars can fund the needed research to develop what is needed and have it build into computers being used by other governments!
Furthermore we know so little about electricity that things are possible we claim is impossible! The electron is consider non existent by some of the greatest electrical minds such as Dollard and former giants like N. Tesla and quite a few others. It has been reported Tesla had a car that ran on electricity obtained from the ether, I don't think he did but the possibility that someone does it today will not happen and too many that supposedly came up with something similar wound up dead. Think about it, how many very powerful people would allow a car to run on electricity gather from the Air! Arabs? Oil shipping companies? Oil refineries? Governments that get billions of dollars from tax on oil?
Power companies are changing from Delta transmission of power to Wye, I'm sure they are doing it to better their bottom line. Will they unknowingly create a common connection to everything?
 
...
"Photo frames" were one of the items. You load photos and the frame slideshows them continuously.

Or a small boxfull of USB thumb drives, scattered around the 'target.' This apparently how the stuxnet virus was installed at the enrichment plant.

The *real* short answer is, with VERY few exceptions, nobody wants to hack into our computers. It's not like we're designing quantum computers or something.
 
Yes I understand anyone hacking into my computer isn't going to get much! Some time ago I get e-mail from some hacker that claimed he hacked into some porn site and has some quite interesting videos of me! Send him some Bit Coin or he will forward my photos and video to everyone in my e-mail! I told him to please send me the videos too, I'd like to see myself in action therefore I not sending you anything! Idiot don't know I do not have a camera nor ever sent any video of any subject! Yes I do have a camera but it's still in the box unopened.
Putting Politics and computers together it's easy to see where some country will spend large amount of money that wants to connect to computers without being detected. Not having been to China but I'm told it's possible to purchase items in China without the need of a credit card. Facial recognition will automatically remove the funds from their bank account!
 
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Power companies are changing from Delta transmission of power to Wye, I'm sure they are doing it to better their bottom line. Will they unknowingly create a common connection to everything?

Nope, costs money.

Better protection from EMP, that is apparently the reason.
 
Nope, costs money.

Better protection from EMP, that is apparently the reason.

Yeah, with the thousands of miles of wire and replacing the transformers It would cost more but afterwards the transformers are cheaper. I recall back when school Delta was to be a better way to transmit power and Wye the best to deliver it. Been so long ago but I think Harmonics was why. E.Dollard if I recall claimed Wye is more prone to EMP. I'm thinking that will funding help from Murskami Dollard is developing the flame speaker. Kinda interesting how they create the electric flame and that it can produce sound!
 








 
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