HASS VF2-SS and PT020 Phase Perfect Converter iSSUE
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    Default HASS VF2-SS and PT020 Phase Perfect Converter iSSUE

    Hello,
    I've used this forum for a reference on a lot of things and has always been a great source of information. I finally registered and now I'm posting about an issue I'm having:

    I just had my new HAAS VF2-SS installed in my home work shop.

    - I have the machine running on a Phase Perfect PT 020 20 HP hard state converter

    - The phase converter is running off of a 150amp breaker with 1awg wire from its own 200 amp service to the converter.

    -#4 wire going from the phase converter to the machine

    -Voltage going from the phase converter into the machine is L1 246v L2 246vL3 (The generated leg) 244v

    -During operation of the machine under diagnostics the DC Voltage Analog data is 324V the AC Line voltage is 97%

    -On initial start up I get a 552 TRIPPED CIRCUIT BREAKER error. I checked and no breakers were tripped. I restarted and no issues

    - Every time I start up the machine I get the 552 TRIPPED CIRCUIT BREAKER error and have to restart the phase converter and the machine once sometimes twice until it powers up correctly. Then the machine runs fine. No power alarms no spindle power up issues.

    - I start the phase converter every time with the breaker on the machine off, power up the phase converter, turn on the breaker on the machine, and then power up the machine. Every time I power up the 552 TRIPPED CIRCUIT BREAKER error occurs.

    My HAAS Tech came out the other day and we went through the whole system checking wire connections, grounds, tried stepping down taps, reconfigured incoming wires from converter to the machine, and nothing.

    Another tech called phase perfect and they said they've never heard of this issue, and of course HAAS just said they don't recommend using a phase converter.

    Machine runs great once started up, I've had the TSC pump, regular coolant pump, and auger all running togother and no issues, not even a flicker. Ramp up to 12K on the spindle no issues.

    Has anyone seen this issue before? Is it specific to the phase converter? Is there something I can do about it?

    Thanks for any help.

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    Is there any self resetting breakers that could be tripping?
    You don’t mention how long your cable runs are? I doubt it matters unless it’s crazy long
    Sounds like you got a pretty solid setup
    Is your vector drive a 20HP or larger in the SS?

    I know the phase perfect and the haas both have a fair amount of capacitors that will create a significant inrush upon startup.
    Mind you I have a pp-335 (20HP version) on a 60 amp breaker and it never trips, heck ran my vf2 and 20HP slant bed both at 70% load at the same time today and it sat around 58 amps.

    Hope you find some resolution

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    Anything in here you can review?
    PSUP PCB - Troubleshooting Guide - CHC

    PSUP PCB - Troubleshooting Guide - NGC

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKeHPqGhBE0

    These threads have a LOT to dig into typically. There are posts you can find via search as well. Power is king... needs to be right. We ended up w/ a few months of diags and issue resolution. It may not be 1 thing but a few. (as ours ended up being). Just a thought....
    Also, I called these guys when we were having issues as a possible new device. did not buy, but talked to the tech support guy on their unit. The 240 single phase is passed right on through. Nothing is really done to it from what I recall? Then you have the the generated leg. Supposed to be balanced, and is but inrush and startup of everything causes a mix of characteristics in the system. Hard to solve at times as you now know.
    When you start up, you could watch the 240 from your source, set a meter to MIN mode, and see what the voltage sags too. Do the same for the other two sides w/ the wild leg? Same for MAX, and see the highest values hit. Just a thought. Not sure where else to go either. Ground loop, Tap setting? Maybe move just to see if it stops? (as a small test only).

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    The lines from the main panel to the converter are 8'and the lines from the converter to the machine are 15' I tried to set everything up for success and read some of those issues here before configuring my set up.

    It's the brand new Vector Drive and my HAAS Tech said that might be part of the issue with the phase converter, might also be why Phase Perfect has not seen this issue yet.

    I'm just trying to figure out if it's to much power going into the machine on start up or not enough. I know there's a step down I can control the voltage going into the machine and that 230-235v is the sweet spot for HAAS machine. Just don't want to spend more money if that's not the issue.

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    Thank you for the info. I watched that video. We pulled all of the breakers and tested them for resistance, but didn't test anything behind them.

    We traced the ground loop and since everything was newly installed by the power company and my electrician that was easy to confirm. We did try setting the taps one down and had the same issue.

    I will continue to explore options. Besides having to restart every time this set up is working great and the HAAS VF2-SS is truly an amazing machine.

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    Just out of curiosity do your light blink on startup? It only takes about 3 volts of slump to get the blink. Of course this
    assumes tungsten lamps.
    I think your theory of inrush current is correct. You might try restarting at various intervals and see if that makes a
    difference. If you wait a certain interval the input caps should bleed down and you essentially get to start all over!
    Good luck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VCI1759 View Post
    - I have the machine running on a Phase Perfect PT 020 20 HP hard state converter

    - The phase converter is running off of a 150amp breaker with 1awg wire from its own 200 amp service to the converter.

    -#4 wire going from the phase converter to the machine

    -Voltage going from the phase converter into the machine is L1 246v L2 246vL3 (The generated leg) 244v
    I think you can safely rule out converter size and wiring size. Our VF5 and UMC500s are wired with 8awg on 40A breakers.

    At 246/246/244 your voltages are on the high side.

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    I don't keep up with the Haas machines, so I looked it up. What I was seeing on their website that it is a 30hp motor and you have a 20hp rated converter. You should look at the KVA rating on the machine itself to insure that your Phase Perfect is capable of supplying that amount as well.

    Logically you are not starting it up at full load, however Sterling's scenario for capacitor inrush could very well be the case, because your Phase Perfect might not be big enough to supply the necessary inrush current until the machine's capacitors have been fully charged thereby creating the error. When you restart they are charged up and the error doesn't occur.

    Some machines, not all, will have all NON three phase required loads on one or two line inputs. If that is the case, hook up the NON generated phase lines to those inputs.

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    Check voltages of T1-T3 and T2-T3 when there's a load coming on and see if it drops and by how much.
    Maybe you have to put your new PT020 in Elevator Mode and see if that fixes it. Check Page 24-25 of the V2.0 online manual.
    If you're able to go from 0 to 12,000rpm without it giving a fault it may be something else though.

    I installed a brand new PT010 last week for the manual side of my shop. I instantly noticed 5-6 seconds of loud humming in my main manual lathe with every start, after some testing I saw T3 was getting a major drop in voltage. Turns out these new models ship in " Transformer Mode " which current/voltage limits T3 on higher start loads (this will drop T1-T3, T2-T3 a lot, I was seeing around 140-150V...)
    I'm gonna try to switch mine to Elevator Mode this morning.
    The first 2 people I talked with at PP didn't seem to know of this new feature and hadn't heard of this either when I mentioned I was having a loud humming on start up and some other issues and if it was just a setting or something actually wrong, it had to be a problem on my side, so I chased my tail a bit making sure it wasn't, but finally one of I think their engineers called back and mentioned its a new feature.

    Assuming it isn't something else with your machine throwing that alarm.
    I doubt being a bit high on the voltage side would be the issue, I ran my CNC mill at 246V for quite a few years without any issue but maybe some are pickier. Probably lots of Haas machines running on RPC's in that 246V range too...
    When I moved the shop I put a Delta/Wye transformer on the CNC side, I have it tapped around 230V now. A buck/boost will knock a few volts off cheaper, don't go too low either. 230-235V is a happy place for some machines as it drops when the machines starts and you definitely don't want to drop too low either. I think my Doosan lynx kicks out of machine ready at around 210 or 215V(accord to my meter anyway), had it happen a few times when the screw compressor starts, I wish I could bump it up about 5V but I'm tapped out on the transformer. Might move the compressor to my other older PP since I got 3 now...
    Last edited by SND; 06-21-2021 at 07:54 AM.

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    on the power supply PCB it reads off a transformer, have you measured the voltage there when starting it up? as it fires you could be getting a lag in the supply and causing it to drop out. Have you tried a few line capacitors or having a transformer somewhere in the circuit to level off the voltages so you dont get huge inductive spikes. I know haas machines are picky on the incoming voltage supplies. drops below i think 230V and it alarms out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ss_user View Post
    Just out of curiosity do your light blink on startup? It only takes about 3 volts of slump to get the blink. Of course this
    assumes tungsten lamps.
    I think your theory of inrush current is correct. You might try restarting at various intervals and see if that makes a
    difference. If you wait a certain interval the input caps should bleed down and you essentially get to start all over!
    Good luck.
    Lights do not flicker at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SND View Post
    Check voltages of T1-T3 and T2-T3 when there's a load coming on and see if it drops and by how much.
    Maybe you have to put your new PT020 in Elevator Mode and see if that fixes it. Check Page 24-25 of the V2.0 online manual.
    If you're able to go from 0 to 12,000rpm without it giving a fault it may be something else though.

    I installed a brand new PT010 last week for the manual side of my shop. I instantly noticed 5-6 seconds of loud humming in my main manual lathe with every start, after some testing I saw T3 was getting a major drop in voltage. Turns out these new models ship in " Transformer Mode " which current/voltage limits T3 on higher start loads (this will drop T1-T3, T2-T3 a lot, I was seeing around 140-150V...)
    I'm gonna try to switch mine to Elevator Mode this morning.
    The first 2 people I talked with at PP didn't seem to know of this new feature and hadn't heard of this either when I mentioned I was having a loud humming on start up and some other issues and if it was just a setting or something actually wrong, it had to be a problem on my side, so I chased my tail a bit making sure it wasn't, but finally one of I think their engineers called back and mentioned its a new feature.

    Assuming it isn't something else with your machine throwing that alarm.
    I doubt being a bit high on the voltage side would be the issue, I ran my CNC mill at 246V for quite a few years without any issue but maybe some are pickier. Probably lots of Haas machines running on RPC's in that 246V range too...
    When I moved the shop I put a Delta/Wye transformer on the CNC side, I have it tapped around 230V now. A buck/boost will knock a few volts off cheaper, don't go too low either. 230-235V is a happy place for some machines as it drops when the machines starts and you definitely don't want to drop too low either. I think my Doosan lynx kicks out of machine ready at around 210 or 215V(accord to my meter anyway), had it happen a few times when the screw compressor starts, I wish I could bump it up about 5V but I'm tapped out on the transformer. Might move the compressor to my other older PP since I got 3 now...
    SND,
    I'm very curious how this works out. I would have to get and figure out how to connect the dry switches, but this may be the exact fix to my issue. Standing by for the results

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    Quote Originally Posted by SND View Post
    Check voltages of T1-T3 and T2-T3 when there's a load coming on and see if it drops and by how much.
    Maybe you have to put your new PT020 in Elevator Mode and see if that fixes it. Check Page 24-25 of the V2.0 online manual.
    If you're able to go from 0 to 12,000rpm without it giving a fault it may be something else though.

    I installed a brand new PT010 last week for the manual side of my shop. I instantly noticed 5-6 seconds of loud humming in my main manual lathe with every start, after some testing I saw T3 was getting a major drop in voltage. Turns out these new models ship in " Transformer Mode " which current/voltage limits T3 on higher start loads (this will drop T1-T3, T2-T3 a lot, I was seeing around 140-150V...)
    I'm gonna try to switch mine to Elevator Mode this morning.
    The first 2 people I talked with at PP didn't seem to know of this new feature and hadn't heard of this either when I mentioned I was having a loud humming on start up and some other issues and if it was just a setting or something actually wrong, it had to be a problem on my side, so I chased my tail a bit making sure it wasn't, but finally one of I think their engineers called back and mentioned its a new feature.

    Assuming it isn't something else with your machine throwing that alarm.
    I doubt being a bit high on the voltage side would be the issue, I ran my CNC mill at 246V for quite a few years without any issue but maybe some are pickier. Probably lots of Haas machines running on RPC's in that 246V range too...
    When I moved the shop I put a Delta/Wye transformer on the CNC side, I have it tapped around 230V now. A buck/boost will knock a few volts off cheaper, don't go too low either. 230-235V is a happy place for some machines as it drops when the machines starts and you definitely don't want to drop too low either. I think my Doosan lynx kicks out of machine ready at around 210 or 215V(accord to my meter anyway), had it happen a few times when the screw compressor starts, I wish I could bump it up about 5V but I'm tapped out on the transformer. Might move the compressor to my other older PP since I got 3 now...
    SND,
    Very curious how this works out for you. This might be the solution to my issue. I would have to buy and figure out how to use the dry switches, but will be worth it if it fixes the issue. Standing by to see how it works out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BT Fabrication View Post
    on the power supply PCB it reads off a transformer, have you measured the voltage there when starting it up? as it fires you could be getting a lag in the supply and causing it to drop out. Have you tried a few line capacitors or having a transformer somewhere in the circuit to level off the voltages so you dont get huge inductive spikes. I know haas machines are picky on the incoming voltage supplies. drops below i think 230V and it alarms out.
    I have not tried this. I will need to get someone else in my shop to measure this voltage. Thank you for the info.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VCI1759 View Post
    SND,
    Very curious how this works out for you. This might be the solution to my issue. I would have to buy and figure out how to use the dry switches, but will be worth it if it fixes the issue. Standing by to see how it works out.
    I've sent them an inquiry to clarify this dry switch thing before I do it.
    My feeling is its just a matter of putting a couple jumper wires as SW3 and SW4 are switches, but I'll see what I hear back and let you know.

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    In a recent garage install of a SMM2 got electrical alarm on startup. After much wire swapping and internet searching, ended up putting the wild leg (manufactured 3rd phase) in the middle terminal.

    Now runs just fine. So maybe worth checking out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SND View Post
    I've sent them an inquiry to clarify this dry switch thing before I do it.
    My feeling is its just a matter of putting a couple jumper wires as SW3 and SW4 are switches, but I'll see what I hear back and let you know.
    OK thank you

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    Quote Originally Posted by mmca View Post
    In a recent garage install of a SMM2 got electrical alarm on startup. After much wire swapping and internet searching, ended up putting the wild leg (manufactured 3rd phase) in the middle terminal.

    Now runs just fine. So maybe worth checking out.
    My HAAS tech told me that the transformer powers off of the two outside legs, so I put the manufactured leg in the middle.

    It's very strange because this is not a lower power alarm at all it's a tripped breaker alarm. So somewhere in the process to much power or not enough isn't getting to the machine. Need to do more readings during start up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VCI1759 View Post
    SND,
    I'm very curious how this works out. I would have to get and figure out how to connect the dry switches, but this may be the exact fix to my issue. Standing by for the results
    I got more details yesterday. Turns out the "dry switches" are just if you want to put 2 bigger switches to change setting rather than use the 2 tiny ones SW3, SW4 that are on the board. You don't need to wire anything to use those, only remove AUX1 to COM jumper, and put it back on after the setting has been changed(turn off PT first and make sure SW3,SW4 are off also). Should be pretty easy, I'm gonna do that this afternoon and see how it behaves after that.

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    Got mine changed to Elevator Mode now, did it with the 2 little SW3, SW4 switches on the board.
    Now my manual lathe starts right away similar to how it did with the old PP without much drop of T3.
    There's still something else I gotta figure out about a pulsating sound that wasn't there with my older PP but anyway, it works, voltages are fine. I also put a line reactor ahead of this new PP to knock out a lot of the noise/harmonics feedback into the mains and that seems to be working pretty well.

    Now that doesn't mean that its the source of the issue with your machine, could be something else.

    With my 2 cnc's I put T3 on the right, always been fine here but maybe some other machines need it in middle or other side.

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