Help with wiring up a Brown & Sharpe 440V 3PH Grinder
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    Default Help with wiring up a Brown & Sharpe 440V 3PH Grinder

    I know this gets asked pretty regularly here, but I also know the answers seem to fluctuate based on the actual machine being wired.

    A little background, I am looking at buying this B&S #5 Grinder locally, it was hooked up to 440 service, I have 220 single phase off the highway, and a Cederberg Rotary converter running my Bridgeport.

    Question is basically, what would be my most efficient hook up for this grinder?

    VFD?

    Jump off my rotary thru step up transformer?

    Whole different Converter?

    Re-wire motor on grinder to run 240 3 ph?

    I really know very little about wiring 3 ph so I don't want to screw it up.

    Note, I also have a 3 horse 440 3 PH pedestal buffer I got for next to nothing, it is sitting in a corner unused, as I stole the pedestal and mounted a single phase buffer on it for a quick solution, so bonus points if the wiring solution for the Grinder allows me to run the buffer.



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    More pics, let me know if more info is needed, thanks guys!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20171125_102622.jpg   20171125_102617.jpg   20171125_102437.jpg   20171125_102433.jpg  

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    Look at grinder motor data plate ,see if it shows 2 voltages. If so rewire for lower voltage. Same story for your pedestal grinder.

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    Reconnect the motors, change the heaters. Done.

    Even if the motors are single-voltage,a motor shop can almost always pull the leads to reconnect them for the lower voltage. If you will keep the machine for any length of time it's better. Transformers suck.

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    The pedestal grinder placards only show 440, and I did call one armature shop when I got it and they wanted nothing to do with it, either rewiring the motor or helping with transformers so I gave up and bought a cheap single phase buffer as I needed it asap.

    Could not get a pic of the placard on the B&S due to where the guy had it set out of the way in his shop. . .and hate to ask him 1000 more questions, but I may go out there to check it out again, I was hoping someone could tell from the charts, or someone that has one of these

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    Quote Originally Posted by KGB Customs View Post
    The pedestal grinder placards only show ...
    Pull the cover off and count the leads. I should keep my mouth shut since it's been years since I did this but dual-voltage three-phase motors generally have nine leads. If you've got nine leads, should be able to reconnect.

    Here's the two most common :

    http://apps.motorboss.com/connections/109144.pdf

    http://apps.motorboss.com/connections/109145.pdf

    Luckily, you will notice that they are the same whether delta or wye. Also notice that the diagrams kinda suck, T1 goes to L1 etc etc in both cases, the line-in is not just sitting there unconnected.

    The other thing you need to change is, you should have magnetic starters or relays that pick up when you hit the on button. There are overload heaters on those, one for each leg. They have to be sized to the voltage. Easy to change, the starter company will have a chart of which one is the right size for your motor.

    I did call one armature shop when I got it and they wanted nothing to do with it,
    Take a gun with you next time you go visit I am getting so sick of imbeciles who can't do their job ...

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    That's pretty far above my pay grade, but I may well try it on the buffer as its no great loss to me if I destroy it. I will also call a couple other armature shops in the area to see if anyone is willing to help

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    Quote Originally Posted by KGB Customs View Post
    I will also call a couple other armature shops in the area to see if anyone is willing to help
    Count your leads first, if there's nine you probably don't have to hassle with them. And as long as the electric is turned off, don't have to worry. The first time I messed with three-phase I was white as a ghost, but just be careful and it's not that big a deal

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    Awesome, will dig into the buffer tomorrow and report back, thanks Seamoss, I assume neither pic of wiring I showed on the surface grinder shows what you are after?

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    The wiring diagrams show power going to motors - not especially helpful

    Inside the "pecker head" (terminal box) on the motor looks like a snake nest that you get to learn something about

    If a nine lead motor there will be nine TAGGED motor wires in there - not counting any LINE wires bringing in power

    SM's links show both WYE and DELTA configurations - personally, I have NEVER seen a machine tool with DELTA in fifty years of messing with machine tools

    If your SG is WYE and has the following hook up, it will be happy to run on your 230 three phase assuming you got enough AMPS

    Line #1 wire hooks to motor wire T1 and T7
    Line #2 wire hooks to motor wire T2 and T8
    Line #3 wire hooks to motor wire T3 and T9
    Motor wires T4, T5 and T6 hook to each other but NOTHING else

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaMoss View Post
    Reconnect the motors, change the heaters. Done.
    .
    On the B&S since there is no control transformer to jump maybe the coils will not be happy with this easy way out.
    A quick glance shows the start/stop buttons to be fully into the 440 side (ouch) so the coils would be too.
    Agree that transformers to run motors suck so I'd tend to a little guy to run the controls side and rewire the motors but this would be a big wiring modification to separate the 440 from the 220 and only works if the motors are true dual voltage.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    On the B&S since there is no control transformer to jump maybe the coils will not be happy with this easy way out.
    Ouch ! That's kinda cheesy. I've always seen a little transformer to make all the coils run at a nice safe 110v

    You could always add one tho ... should be really cheap over at the local Radio Shack

    Looking at the photo (shoulda done that before, bad /me) those starters look kinda wacky, too. I'd go over to the local electrical junkyard and pick up different starters .... but that might be a big jump for the O.P.

    Anyway, FIRST see if the motors can be reconnected. If that's feasible, then worry about step two. Don't get freaked, OP. Wiring a simple machine is not that big a deal.

    p.s. The start-stop buttons are wired 440 ? Holy smokes ! call me a pansy but that would be something I would change no matter what

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    Following on what Bob said,

    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    On the B&S since there is no control transformer to jump maybe the coils will not be happy with this easy way out.
    A quick glance shows the start/stop buttons to be fully into the 440 side (ouch) so the coils would be too.
    Agree that transformers to run motors suck so I'd tend to a little guy to run the controls side and rewire the motors but this would be a big wiring modification to separate the 440 from the 220 and only works if the motors are true dual voltage.
    Bob
    The starters definitely are connected for line voltage control operation, meaning the starter operating coils are for the hi voltage of the line. To further compound this issue is the age and brands of the equipment installed. Getting replacement parts that you would need for the conversion would not be simple as suggested earlier by the gun toting Sea Moss.

    One starter is a SqD, The other is an Allen Bradley, then the overload relay elements are GE. To reconnect for 230V operation you would need new coils for both starters, and new heaters elements for the GE overload blocks.

    Replacing all of the controls, with surplus units may be better and cheaper, but only if you have the skill set for that, which it sounds like you don't. A complete rewire of controls and motors.

    The simpleton solution would be to use a transformer. But one other possible snag could be is it really 3Φ 440V ? The drawing shows both 3Φ setup and a 2Φ setup. Don't know how far you are from it, but the Niagara area is where 2Φ equipment was used commonly. 3Φ motors have 3 power leads, 2Φ motors have 4 power leads, as shown in the drawings you posted. I would check that first, or confirm from the seller that it really is a 3Φ 440V setup. Looks like the nameplate is on the control panel door painted over.

    For a small load like that you can make a 3Φ transformer setup out of 2) 1Φ transformers connected in a open delta arrangement to get 460V from 230V. But this may be something beyond your skill set. It can be done, and the small transformers could be hung on the rear of the machine base.

    Just some additional food for thought, before you decide.

    SAF Ω

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    Many thanks for all the input guys, I am going to make some calls this week on getting a electrical expert to look at the grinder to see what needs done.


    In the meantime, this is some more info on the buffer I have, the wires in the bottom of the box are coated with something that has hardened up, and they are damn stiff, but I will try to work them loose for a better look. Do I need to go deeper or can we learn something from this?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20171127_221424.jpg   20171127_221436.jpg  

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    Got them freed up, 6 of them, all have a metal tag, they are worse for the wear, let me know what I have here
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    Quote Originally Posted by KGB Customs View Post
    Got them freed up, 6 of them, all have a metal tag, they are worse for the wear, let me know what I have here
    Hate to say it, but what you have there is garbage. Get an electrician that will work with you to find surplau current model starters and overload relays on e-bay and have it rewired.

    Dennis

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    Quote Originally Posted by KGB Customs View Post
    Got them freed up, 6 of them, all have a metal tag, they are worse for the wear, let me know what I have here
    That's just the switch - there's three legs in, some movable contacts, then three legs out. Off position they don't connect, on position they do. Downstream of that is your motor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Modelman View Post
    Hate to say it, but what you have there is garbage. Get an electrician that will work with you to find surplus current model starters and overload relays on e-bay and have it rewired.
    I have a fetish for antiques running As Original but practically speaking, Modelman here is probly correct. It's a simple setup so anyone with some experience with three-phase motors should be able to set you up. And I really like the magnetic contactors instead of straight-thru pushbuttons. If the power ever goes off, it's real nice that things don't just turn themselves back on later.

    Quote Originally Posted by SAF View Post
    Getting replacement parts that you would need for the conversion would not be simple as suggested earlier by the gun toting Sea Moss.
    I guess you're right ... It's like being Rip Van Winkel, stuff has changed more than I thought It's just hard for me to imagine a US where you can't get anything done. Sigh.

    I bet the six-shooter still gets people's attention tho

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    Default Can I run a car factory from this?

    Not to bust up the party here but I have also been looking at that grinder for a couple months as it's been on craigslist 2 or 3 times now. I am 3 hours away and don't honestly have the money so I probably won't get it. If I were you making gun parts, assuming, I'd look for a newer machine that you know isn't going to stripe, scallop and knacker up your parts. You want mirror finish right off the rip and an old machine like this isn't for guys who want to do paid work, it's for guys who want to do tons of work before they do work for free for them self and their buddies. Think of it like a vintage pick up truck. You are not going to buy an old and beat '66 truck when you need to run all over town or the state delivering parts for your job. It's too much work with a very unexpected result. A guy like me has the knowledge, desire, time, tools and skill to tinker with, rebuild and make that truck work and still risk it leaving me on the side of the road after all that because that's what I enjoy. Standing on the side of the road. haha. Back on track, your money is better spent getting a newer machine where you are 68 percent sure it will do the job you need it do with the power and set up you have now. This machine is 0 percent. So say it powers up, will it work? If it doesn't can you fix it? Where will you get parts. I don't know if I can fix it either but I work at a machine shop and in my head anyway can make any parts that are broken or need replaced (probably wrong). That's the thing, a guy like me has to be just dumb enough to think I can make it work. And at the same time, smart enough, resourceful enough and most important; dedicated enough to see it though. Not saying you aren't any of these things but I have been doing this a long time. Vintage motorcycles for instance. Tons of guys and gals tell me their dreams of owning a cheap or free vintage bike and riding it around but what they don't realize is I spend every second thinking about it, every penny buying parts, bikes and tools and even dream about it when I sleep and in the end I have more money in my 600 dollar piece of crap SR500 than if I would have just spent 2 grand on a nice one in the first place.

    Now for the tech. Say this OP passed it up and gave myself the go ahead to consider driving 3 hours and spending my rent money the day it's due to buy this. Let's just say that this machine is locked into 440v 3 phase. I rent a warehouse that used to be a machine shop and it has all it's high leg delta power with a wall full of fancy square D boxes that I have almost no idea what they all do. My experiance is hooking up my 1947 Jhead round ram and my 69 heavy 10 SB lathe, I also pulled 220 single to run my welders by hooking the high leg at the box as a ground and using the 2 110's as my 220 single "outaphase" There is this big humming box in the back by the wall of square d's. Will this power that 440v grinder?
    Power coming in from pole here to switch pannel that has this switch, then to this big box (assuming transformer) then directly up to this box in next photo then out to this box in next post which goes out to where the machines on the label used to be in the shop (where a sad orange hf 30 inch pound wanna be press stands now. haha
    20171128_230132-1-.jpg
    20171128_230142-1-.jpg
    20171128_230211-1-.jpg
    20171128_230221-1-.jpg
    20171128_230226-1-.jpg

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    Default I need a 4 story press now

    And the last photo that wouldn't upload past the 5 limit in last post, the exit box to where the machine used to live.20171128_230240-1-.jpg
    Keep in mind, I am not intending on going up and buying this out from under you even though I did talk to the guy over email a month ago. I am mostly making this post to see if I were to find any 440v equipment around if I could run it. If you however post up how you are going to pass on this then I will, for the entertainment purposes of the board , probably maybe drive 3 hours and buy it just to make a set of 4 matching a2 renzetti blocks at home instead of staying after at work to make them.. Even though I can take 75 thou cuts on my machine at work and only 5 thou cuts on my old 47 round ram at my glorified storage shed.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20171114_142903-1-.jpg  
    Last edited by Andrew937; 11-29-2017 at 07:25 PM.

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    You are certainly more ready to juice up big stuff than I am, I am awaiting reply from a couple armature shops before I give up hope of getting that bad boy though. And I am certain it will run precise enough for what I want it for, dressing frames and slide flats, would convert it to a belt grinder for polishing. I get by with my 43 Round Ram BP for most things, but hand sanding is tiresome ;-)
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