The lack of general availability of 3 phase power in the USA
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 1 of 13 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 259
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Geilenkirchen, Germany
    Posts
    2,949
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1641
    Likes (Received)
    1560

    Default The lack of general availability of 3 phase power in the USA

    In relation to the national power grid and its modernization, no one is talking about universal distribution of 3 phase power everywhere. It is criminal! All this talk about improving the national infrastructure and the incredible amount of money that is being contemplated and no one is mentioning this issue. Yet all our uninformed politicians talk about green this, green that, just the amount of electric efficiency gained would be worth the investment. Is the US destined to be a third world country? The power grid should be the highest priority for advanced manufacturing and industry in general and in the US home manufacturing is becoming more and more prevalent. Jus sayin!

  2. Likes Pern, rustytool, APynckel liked this post
  3. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Temecula, Ca
    Posts
    3,494
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1441
    Likes (Received)
    4527

    Default

    considering the horrendously dangerous and potentially life threatening condition of many electrical panels I've looked behind, I'd say it's well worthwhile to keep John Q. Homeowner as far away from 3 phase as possible.

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    St Louis
    Posts
    19,651
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2519
    Likes (Received)
    3820

    Default

    3phase is just the same as anything else.

    Explain why 208 3 phase to a house would be more dangerous than single phase. Both are 120V to ground, and ol' John Q. would never know the difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by steve-l View Post
    In relation to the national power grid and its modernization, no one is talking about universal distribution of 3 phase power everywhere. It is criminal! All this talk about improving the national infrastructure and the incredible amount of money that is being contemplated and no one is mentioning this issue. Yet all our uninformed politicians talk about green this, green that, just the amount of electric efficiency gained would be worth the investment. Is the US destined to be a third world country? The power grid should be the highest priority for advanced manufacturing and industry in general and in the US home manufacturing is becoming more and more prevalent. Jus sayin!
    Where do YOU live?

    Three phase is absolutely everywhere, except possibly some long lines out in the sticks, with only a couple residences on them.

    There is 7200 volt 3 phase running down the end of my block, and it is across the street from me as well, running behind the houses there in an easement. The powerco policy is NOT to run 3 phase anything to a residence, but it is right there and "could" be run to all the houses.

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Geilenkirchen, Germany
    Posts
    2,949
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1641
    Likes (Received)
    1560

    Default

    JST,
    I'm an American living in Germany. I know all about the single phase power issues in the States, I grew up there. In Germany every house that I know of has a 400 volt, 3 phase service. The older homes have a 32 amp service, but most of the new homes have a 64 amp service to support potential geothermal well systems. This is standard and there are no extra costs. All buildings in Germany also have .03 amp GFI breakers mandated by the government. I hope you can appreciate this convenience, especially if you compare this to the issues you guys have with phase converters, floating grounds and all the expense it entails, not to mention inefficiency. I don't know where the problem is in the US whether it's the power companies or the lack of concern and due diligence of the governments, but it needs to change to remain competitive.

  6. Likes 1yesca liked this post
  7. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES MINOR OUTLYING ISLANDS
    Posts
    9,762
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    4694

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by steve-l View Post
    I don't know where the problem is in the US whether it's the power companies or the lack of concern and due diligence of the governments, but it needs to change to remain competitive.
    The US is too busy building aircraft carriers and fighting over who gets to use which bathroom to spend any time or money on this silliness. Priorities, my man. Who needs efficient electricity when we can bomb the shit out of Syria instead ?

  8. Likes empwoer, metal-ica liked this post
  9. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    14,352
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4892
    Likes (Received)
    5194

    Default

    I just saw an interview where this lady in charge was telling the onlookers how all these cars are being charged with clean green energy. An onlooker/newsman asked where does that green electric energy come from?

    She answered from the building.
    He said, I mean where does it come from as like where is it produced
    She answered I don't know.

    Very likely they have very pretty pink unicorns dancing around a generator wheel as they give free unicorn rides to needy children with music playing on a sunny day.

  10. Likes Winterfalke, Illinoyance, Modelman, TFPace liked this post
  11. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    14,352
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4892
    Likes (Received)
    5194

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by steve-l View Post
    JST,
    I'm an American living in Germany. I know all about the single phase power issues in the States, I grew up there. In Germany every house that I know of has a 400 volt, 3 phase service. The older homes have a 32 amp service, but most of the new homes have a 64 amp service to support potential geothermal well systems. This is standard and there are no extra costs. All buildings in Germany also have .03 amp GFI breakers mandated by the government. I hope you can appreciate this convenience, especially if you compare this to the issues you guys have with phase converters, floating grounds and all the expense it entails, not to mention inefficiency. I don't know where the problem is in the US whether it's the power companies or the lack of concern and due diligence of the governments, but it needs to change to remain competitive.
    Steve 100 [email protected] 110/220 will service a range, water heater, general lighting, and receptacle outlets so is a much higher service a waste of money where it may never be needed?
    But wait, 400V @ 32a is a power coefficient of about 13,000, and 220 @ 100 amps is 22,00 so Germany is the right thing.

    Agree going to electric cars and needed a fast charge high amp service will become the norm.

    Anong with batteries capable of 3 days to a week for a power outage.

    And a generator for when the power is out longer than a week.

    Half supported by tax write-off because it is free money that comes from selling unicorn's poop to China.

  12. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES MINOR OUTLYING ISLANDS
    Posts
    9,762
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    4694

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    Very likely they have very pretty pink unicorns dancing around a generator wheel as they give free unicorn rides to needy children with music playing on a sunny day.
    Yeah right. Except for the fact that electric cars are a lot more efficient than internal combustion. One twit being interviewed by a bunch of other twits doesn't change that.

  13. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    14,352
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4892
    Likes (Received)
    5194

    Default

    How much infrastructure will be needed to go 100% everything off solar, wind and nuclear?

    That is where the fake news comes into play. Sure for this time charging of the house is a bargain. Where does the power come from ...The house.

    Likely supporting all the infrastructure and adding road tax to home electric will take a few bucks to support. More fake news, nobody talks about that.

    The news guys and green promoters are keeping that in the closet.

    like where does food come from? Answer ...The store.

  14. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES MINOR OUTLYING ISLANDS
    Posts
    9,762
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    4694

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    How much infrastructure will be needed to go 100% everything off solar, wind and nuclear?
    How much infrastructure was needed to change to indoor plumbing ? How about electric lights ? What was wrong with gas lighting, we already had it ?! Why pave the roads, it's hard on the horses' feet ! Do you know how much money that will cost ?

    I'd be perfectly happy living in a tipi, but I bet the rest of the public would have some complaints

  15. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    St Louis
    Posts
    19,651
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2519
    Likes (Received)
    3820

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Yeah right. Except for the fact that electric cars are a lot more efficient than internal combustion. One twit being interviewed by a bunch of other twits doesn't change that.

    Forgotten a few things? Yep you did.

    The power generation process is inherently inefficient, depending on the type of plant.

    I am ONLY counting fuel-based power plants, since cars get charged overnight. The sun is "pretty much not around" at night, and even the wind is generally lower at night. Wind power is damn close to a hoax right now anyhow.

    So, the power plant struggles to get close to 50% for the best ones with a "topping" cycle added to the regular steam. That is to get mechanical energy. Call that about 48%.

    Generation is not 100% efficient, probably around 95% at best.

    Transmission of energy to the usage point is about 90% efficient, in general.

    The charger and charging process varies from 80% to 90% efficient in getting energy into the battery.

    Now, the inverter that produces AC for the vehicle motor is about 97%

    The motor in the vehicle is about 90%

    Getting current out of the battery produces heat, efficiency is maybe 97% at "average" current draw.

    There are other incidental losses amounting to a few percent here and there, which we can just leave out for now.

    Getting this all multiplied out, and taking the better efficiency, even though it is not likely to be the average.....

    What we get is a net of about 35% in the process up to storing energy in the battery.

    Now, using that energy from the battery drops the overall efficiency in terms of producing motor torque/power to about 29%.

    It is certainly not impossible to get a 29% efficient IC engine. many are miles ahead of that.

    I could include the energy cost of delivering the fuel, but we did not do that for the power plant either.

  16. Likes JohnEvans, Winterfalke, 1yesca, nhs275 liked this post
  17. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    peekskill, NY
    Posts
    27,578
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    6477

    Default

    1) 3 phase power is commonly available in most US locations.

    2) most US utilities will install this if requested.

    3) it typically comes with peak-demand metering and charges for VAR power.

    Your initial supposition is wrong.

  18. Likes tommy1010, SomeoneSomewhere liked this post
  19. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Washington
    Posts
    3,532
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1432
    Likes (Received)
    1572

    Default

    Anything over 120 is too dangerous for us Americans. I too have 3 phase running past my house, but buying and running a phase converter is way cheaper than getting it installed.

    Even just dropping 120 for 240 would be a good start. 400v 3 phase to all homes, that shit is rainbow unicorns and fairies flying around them for us Americans, come on. It would certainly put Darwin's theory of evolution in action, poof!

  20. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    22,779
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    1) 3 phase power is commonly available in most US locations.

    2) most US utilities will install this if requested.

    3) it typically comes with peak-demand metering and charges for VAR power.

    Your initial supposition is wrong.
    Apparently the OP has 3 phase throughout the house, including in the bedroom.....

  21. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    California
    Posts
    2,727
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2033
    Likes (Received)
    1685

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by steve-l View Post
    In relation to the national power grid and its modernization, no one is talking about universal distribution of 3 phase power everywhere. It is criminal! All this talk about improving the national infrastructure and the incredible amount of money that is being contemplated and no one is mentioning this issue. Yet all our uninformed politicians talk about green this, green that, just the amount of electric efficiency gained would be worth the investment. Is the US destined to be a third world country? The power grid should be the highest priority for advanced manufacturing and industry in general and in the US home manufacturing is becoming more and more prevalent. Jus sayin!
    I've never worked at a factory that didn't have 3-phase power. So not sure what you talking about, as far as I can tell, at least in SoCal manufacturing is well served with 3-phase

    Quote Originally Posted by steve-l View Post
    and in the US home manufacturing is becoming more and more prevalent. Jus sayin!
    I started in an apartement garage with a rotary phase converter, other than the noise wasn't a big deal. There are plenty of people running CNC's in home garages using rotary or solid state phase converters, inconveniant yes, maybe an expensive initial investment, but for me and likely most others not a big deal when all you have is single phase. At least not an insurmountable barrier.

    So what makes you think US home manufacturing is getting more prevalant to the extent that lack of 3-phase to a home is causing a serious detriment? And which industries are becoming more prevalent at home?

  22. Likes 1yesca liked this post
  23. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES MINOR OUTLYING ISLANDS
    Posts
    9,762
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    4694

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    Forgotten a few things?
    You know what the standard response to that is, so I won't say it

    The part I didn't forget is, a lot of a car's time is spent in traffic. In traffic, ic is happily burning fuel while electric is doing nothing. Electrics also have dynamic braking, aka regen, which affects efficiency a fair amount.

    Can't leave important parts out of your equation, then claim victory

    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen
    1) 3 phase power is commonly available in most US locations.
    They charge a fortune to bring it to the house tho. At least PG$E does, doubt that other utilities miss a chance to rape a customer either.

    Don't really see the point tho, except for machine tools most house stuff works fine on single-phase. Teevees, peecees, ovens and even hot water heaters wouldn't know what to do with two more phases ...

  24. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    St Louis
    Posts
    19,651
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2519
    Likes (Received)
    3820

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    You know what the standard response to that is, so I won't say it

    The part I didn't forget is, a lot of a car's time is spent in traffic. In traffic, ic is happily burning fuel while electric is doing nothing. Electrics also have dynamic braking, aka regen, which affects efficiency a fair amount.
    ..........................
    Maybe YOUR car does.

    My 2019 Ranger shuts off and burns NOTHING while waiting for a light, etc. MANY other vehicles are the same, including EVERY hybrid that I am aware of.

    Nope, you have not discovered anything new here, and are apparently unaware of the last few years of auto technology.

    And, even if they DID idle like a 1950s DeSoto, the IC engine would still have a decent shot at being more efficient than the net fossil fuel generation-to-engine-torque chain that basically EVERY electric car runs on now.....

    Perhaps you should look into more modern cars than whatever gas guzzler you are driving now.

    We won't even get into the energy density and range issues that the EV still has, notably due to the 1 1/2 to 10 hour recharge time (depending on what sort of "outlet" you find, and how expensive your EV was).

  25. Likes 1yesca liked this post
  26. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    14,352
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4892
    Likes (Received)
    5194

    Default

    So what do you electrical guys think about steve's 3 phase? If we ran our use perhaps on 440 3phase for washing machines ranges, lighting and everYting what percent savings might we make.

    OT one internet source: A single-phase load (such as a lamp) can indeed be energized by all 3 phases of a 3 phase circuit.
    Last edited by michiganbuck; 07-06-2021 at 06:28 AM.

  27. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    14,352
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4892
    Likes (Received)
    5194

    Default

    OT: not about the topic.

    Emanuel Goldstein do you have a single vehicle and it is electric?

    and all your family vehicles are electric.

  28. Likes steve-l liked this post
  29. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    2,921
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    140
    Likes (Received)
    838

    Default

    In Germany with electrical power not being a limiting factor, how extensive is industrial level manufacturing in "home shops"?
    No zoning regulations?


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •