The lack of general availability of 3 phase power in the USA - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    Emanuel Goldstein do you have a single vehicle and it is electric?
    I share some ... locally run about three times faster than cars, either electric or gasoline, long distance about four times faster, almost as fast as airplanes and much cheaper than personal car ownership. $.86/day (total) is hard to beat.

    With an ic engine, prefer to run methanol .... and turn left



    Mileage is bad but have no idea about carbon dioxide production. Read somewhere it was less ?

    Did take a test drive in a Tesla, interesting but the interior is too crappy and the handling is kind of heavy, no sale. The Associate now wants a Macan, I wash my hands of the whole thing. Not my decision.

    Why do you ask, you need a list of vehicles I've owned before I can talk about cars ?

    JST, sorry to say this but you may be full of the smelly stuff. Perhaps one in a thousand cars turns itself off in traffic. More likely one in a million. Everyone whose car turns itself off while waiting in traffic or at a stoplight, please raise hands ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    They charge a fortune to bring it to the house tho. ..
    A fair cop. However the original complaint was:

    "no one is talking about universal distribution of 3 phase power"

    And not, 'gee it costs so much.' Yes it costs money - because it *saves* money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    .........................................
    JST, sorry to say this but you may be full of the smelly stuff. Perhaps one in a thousand cars turns itself off in traffic. More likely one in a million. Everyone whose car turns itself off while waiting in traffic or at a stoplight, please raise hands ?
    You seem to be grasping at straws as you drown here....

    Newer ones do shut off. Old ones do not. Your numbers are FOS, there are more all the time, I notice them in traffic, when the engines start up at the green light.

    I've noticed several dozen particularly, just because they were nearby, and happened to start (for a left turn or something) before I did. So that probably accounts for 1/10 of the cars in the US, at 1 in a million, and that is just ones I happened to notice locally. All the new Rangers have the feature, which would be most of your 1 in a million right there.

    It's becoming more common because it is a way of reducing the overall pollution output a bit. It probably has little to do with the mileage, and actual overall emissions, but the car makers are going for every half percent they can find. FI-IC engines are quite stingy about fuel when at idle, and even if they did not shut off, that certainly would not tip the efficiency advantage to the electric car.

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    It's a mile (and $100K +) to 3ph from my shop.

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    Three phase doesn't significantly increase efficiency - higher voltage does that. It does make the utility happy because of balanced power, but that only matters for large users.

    All three phase really gets you is a bit of a cost reduction on motors and rectifiers, making VFDs and machines a little bit cheaper. The only reason people on here care so much is that cast-off industrial three phase gear is cheap because it's basically considered scrap. If you were looking at the cost and efficiency difference of, say, a 5-ton AC unit or 10HP compressor - there's basically no difference.

    Plugin hybrids and pure EVs are simply the next step from stop-start and hybrid vehicles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    (Rangers) So that probably accounts for 1/10 of the cars in the US, at 1 in a million, and that is just ones I happened to notice locally. All the new Rangers have the feature, which would be most of your 1 in a million right there.
    That'd work if all the cars in the US were replaced every year. Personally, I have not seen one single car do that, so here we have opposing anecdotes. Go for a poll ? People whose cars stop the engine in traffic or at lights, raise their hands ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    1) 3 phase power is commonly available in most US locations.

    2) most US utilities will install this if requested.

    3) it typically comes with peak-demand metering and charges for VAR power.

    Your initial supposition is wrong.
    I am not saying 3 phase is not available in the US. I am saying it is NOT available in residential areas and in many cases will not be installed for free and in many cases installations are denied. Further, if they are offered, the rates are unaffordable even in large cities where general distribution is already there. Nobody on this forum would install a phase converter if 3 phase power was economically available and there many examples of this in the archives.

    When it comes to efficiency, 3 phase power is significantly more efficient than single phase, especially with motors. Motors can be smaller and draw less wattage for the same output torque. There is no justifiable reason not to offer the general distribution of 3 phase power. Even more to the point transmission losses are significantly less at higher voltage than currently offered.

    Personally this worldwide push toward electric vehicles is truly foolish. Not only is the battery technology no where close to being adequate, neither is the power transmission architecture there to support the battery chargers. Most distribution everywhere except in Africa is AC based and the losses for AC is far greater than DC, especially over long distances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by standardparts View Post
    In Germany with electrical power not being a limiting factor, how extensive is industrial level manufacturing in "home shops"?
    No zoning regulations?
    Home shops do not exist in Germany. In Germany, a license is required for everything. However the reason 3 phase power is available everywhere is simply because it is better.

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    This feature of stopping the engine when stopped is terrible and should be disabled immediately if you have it. Engine bearings wear when starting because there is no oil pressure to support the hydrodynamic cushion to prevent shell journal contact. This is why large IC engines have pre-start oil pumps. Modern engines that offer this stopping feature have specially coated bearing shells. This coating will only last long enough for the warranty to expire.

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    3-phase power is readily available here in NZ but it's certainly not free. Even in a new build situation, you're going to pay a connection fee to the lines company that's about $500 more, plus you have to have three phase breakers, distribution, and mains cable. That's another $2k+ absolute minimum I would expect.

    If you're upgrading an existing property to three phase, you're going to pay similar amounts plus need to dig a new trench. I'm not sure who pays if it's overhead.

    There aren't many people doing any kind of home manufacturing; by the time you get to that stage; getting a proper commercial workshop is better in terms of floor space, utilities, not taking up your garage, noise etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    A fair cop. However the original complaint was:

    "no one is talking about universal distribution of 3 phase power"

    And not, 'gee it costs so much.' Yes it costs money - because it *saves* money.

    A fantasy---Conversion of the U.S. electrical grid. Astronomical cost. Something to tackle after we convert to the metric system?

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    We have 14,700v 3 phase running our road. Myself and one other are on the 3 phase. All the other homes just pull off alternating legs to make the load even.

    I built the shop first and had the 3 phase put in, so when I built the house, I ran it over. Any other buildings I put up will be 3phase as well.

    Hardest part with being on 3 phase is balancing your load. Which most people(including electricians) don't understand. I do consulting for a tourist railroad and when I came on, the electricians they hired didn't understand balancing. Generator was 480v3p load was way off. 100a130a&60a per leg. Took a bit to sort that one out, but generator runs alot more efficient, and when on shore power, it dropped the electric bill.

    Sent from my rotary dial flip fone

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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    ...
    The power generation process is inherently inefficient, depending on the type of plant...... Wind power is damn close to a hoax right now anyhow.......

    Generation is not 100% efficient, probably around 95% at best....Transmission of energy to the usage point is about 90% efficient, in general.....
    It is certainly not impossible to get a 29% efficient IC engine. many are miles ahead of that.

    I could include the energy cost of delivering the fuel, but we did not do that for the power plant either.
    The answer is mostly determined by your assumptions.

    Briefly, not all power plants are "fuel" plants. You ignore hydro, solar and wind. (Except to throw the hoax word around, which is poisoning the well )

    The fuel in a power plant is more efficiently delivered to the plant than the car and is a different fuel (with different efficiency numbers) than would be burned in an ICE car.

    Making generalizations about BEVs and ICE cars isn't the same as studying individual cars. And that's where it gets even more complicated.

    Plenty of people have studied the question, many with more time and funding than the two of us. Google well to wheel efficiency comparison for electric and ice cars? . The first study that comes up compares specific cars, ICE gas, diesel, hybrids and BEVs. There are plenty more studies out there, too, depending on what you'd like to know: efficiency, GHG comparison, operating cost/mile, US comparisons, etc, etc...

    One typical conclusion from the linked study: An ICE Yaris used about 3x the energy/km than a full hybrid Yaris in high density urban traffic. And a surprising conclusion: A full hybrid Prius used less energy/km than a Nissan Leaf in the same traffic situation. This study only examines primary non-renewable usage.

    Seems to me ideal efficiency/GHG emission goals could be attained by solar charging a BEV directly during the day. Dunno why more people aren't doing it. Solar's pretty cheap now- $.50/peak watt panels any reasonably adept DIYer could install.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve-l View Post
    This feature of stopping the engine when stopped is terrible and should be disabled immediately if you have it. Engine bearings wear when starting because there is no oil pressure to support the hydrodynamic cushion to prevent shell journal contact. This is why large IC engines have pre-start oil pumps. Modern engines that offer this stopping feature have specially coated bearing shells. This coating will only last long enough for the warranty to expire.
    This is driven by the greenies, all for "mileage", and my truck has a "disable auto stop" button, I tag it every time I get in the truck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    It's becoming more common because it is a way of reducing the overall pollution output a bit.
    Motor shutdown at a stop has been required by civic ordnances in Europe's cities for around 20-odd years, whether the vehicle did it by built-in electronics (as recent rentals have done), or the DRIVER was meant to comply and shut 'er down, manually. It isn't "just" about air pollution. It is also HEAT and noise.

    From observation? I'd ADD a "calming influence" as to slowing the rise of bad tempers that too-often arise in stalled commuter traffic.

    BFD. More than a few of said cities have also had to go the NEXT step and ban auto's in town near-as-dammit, outright. That, too, enhances livability.

    OTOH, Europe has rather GOOD public mass transport, MOST places folks actually NEED to travel.

    The US? Not so much.

    Similar factors apply to 3-Phase vs Single or "split" - Phase "last leg" distribution.

    Largely, it is a population DENSITY choice that affects the run-length costs of "last leg".

    Where's the economic gain meant to come from by changing an already-pragmatic choice? EITHER OF .. US or European, Canadian, Japanese, or Australian? Each system suits its OWN environment, already.

    And "metric" HAS been successfully dealt with, FWIW. Appropriately relegated to just one more oddball system of measurement among many for around 150 years, already.

    Use it wherever it makes sense. ELSE NOT.

    Much rhe same, uber-regimented Germans as just one more oddball proponent-system of opinionationed rules among many, too.

    Mind their strident opinions where they make sense.

    ELSE NOT.

    BFD..


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    OT: not about Steve's topic of 3 phase power like in Germany might be that good for the USA. I guess w should start talking about fishing or growing potatoes.

    Most larger USA cities have a bus service the will take one often to a half-mile of destination, but this is not as fast and convenient as owning a car. Getting used to walking a mile is common in many countries. likely when the USA goes to socialism or communism that will be the case here.

    All about the world and in Europe rural residents are often 25 or 100 miles away from a travel service like a train or hourly bus service that might be needed for going to work or the like.

    A country built around/along the travel service with cities all in line with the train service would be good, and some countries have that in certain areas.

    But don't beat me up on this because it is just my opinion, not true science... and somebody will argue what about Paris or some other place, Paris has a good travel service but the streets are still lined with cars and no place to park...and petro gas $2 bucks a gallon.

    OH! After the next big war, and a few hundred years for people to get their sheets back together we can design cities that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    OT: not about Steve's topic of 3 phase power like in Germany might be good for the USA.

    Most larger USA cities have a bus service the will take one often to a half-mile of destination, but this is not as fast and convenient as owning a car. Getting used to walking a mile is common in many countries. likely when the USA goes to socialism or communism that will be the case here.

    All about the world and in Europe rural residents are often 25 or 100 miles away from a travel service like a train or hourly bus service that might be needed for going to work or the like.

    A country built around/along the travel service with cities all in line with the train service would be good, and some countries have that in certain areas.

    But don't beat me up on this because it is just my opinion, not true science... and somebody will argue what about Paris or some other place, Paris has a good travel service but the streets are still lined with cars and no place to park...and petro gas $2 bucks a gallon.

    OH! After the next big war, and a few hundred years for people to get their sheets back together we can design cities that way.
    Well.. I know folks who have traveled over twice the 51 countries my Wife and I have done. Each. Not 100% the same 51. Of which - 27 by owned or rented motorcar. The rest largely by rail and motorbus.

    SHE.. does "group tours" and often. I TRY to do "never". Prefer to scout on my own, few or no pre-plans.

    My limited observation - desolate rural to intensely metro - is that ALL of them have what works "OK" for THEIR citizenry. Worst-off of late is actually deep rural - the Russian Federation- as it retreats to a very few major cities, abandoning services as it goes - transport, healthcare, and everything else.

    So no.. nobody is waiting for war nor revolution to make some massive change.
    Folks just keep adapting, every day of every year.

    Including MOVING their "base' - as well as building-out "their solutions"... then moving again to take advantage OF whatever is available

    Not somebody ELSE's "solutions" .. nor something that is NOT available where you ARE.

    So, too, our public utilities.

    Humans are just flexible that way.

    Not "new" is that?

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    Steve could start another thread
    He might call it: The lack of general availability of 3 phase power in the USA
    oh wait! He already did that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve-l View Post
    .... Not only is the battery technology no where close to being adequate, neither is the power transmission architecture there to support the battery chargers. Most distribution everywhere except in Africa is AC based and the losses for AC is far greater than DC, especially over long distances.
    from post #27,
    It looks like you are you saying that it is more efficient to run DC power long distances compared to AC? Please clarify.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    from post #27,
    It looks like you are you saying that it is more efficient to run DC power long distances compared to AC? Please clarify.
    See "size of rights of way", (COSTLY critters in high-density areas. VERY!), also "waste heat", and "superconductor power grids".

    More than a few are out of the lab and doing useful work, already. They HAVE to be.

    Challenges abound. Solutions as well. Those HAVE to be, too.

    "The internet" alone is using more power than mankind might ever have even imagined possible to produce.


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