The lack of general availability of 3 phase power in the USA - Page 7
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 7 of 13 FirstFirst ... 56789 ... LastLast
Results 121 to 140 of 259
  1. #121
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    20,856
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    12220

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Just a Sparky View Post
    Katolight heavy-duty 5kVA hand-portable. Because it's old and cool and heavy... and I can.

    I only wish it had lifting eyes.
    One can ADD lifting eyes. Carry-frame... wheels.. or wotever.

    I am trying to avoid gasoline, nat gas or propane in favor of Diesel, here.

    What I still seek is a really fuel-stingy 1.5 KVA to 2 KVA Diesel unit to run as a "sustainer" .... (small battery bank + inverters).

    My main "critical power" load is only the (several) fridge/freezers.

    With that, I'd only need to fire-up the big guy but a few hours out of 24. If-even.

    At least until "salt water" batteries come more readily available (again).

  2. #122
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    22,401
    Post Thanks / Like

  3. #123
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    20,856
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    12220

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by digger doug View Post
    Hatz are legendary-durable, but the "real" Hatz are waaaay more powerful than I need. See also Deutz.

    Last time I looked, their SMALL ones were re-badged Italian Ruggerini or Lombardini? Or - worse - Chinese-made?

    The only small one that suits is a one-lung Lister "antique".

    Even the modern Kohler air-cooled - but 1800 RPM, not 3600 - is too big.

    The trick with a Diesel is to arrange to run it at 75% to 85% rated power output and KEEP it loaded-up in that range... for longest life, best fuel economy, and least life-cycle cost.

    UNDERloading is hard on them.

  4. #124
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Minnesota
    Posts
    495
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    196
    Likes (Received)
    191

    Default

    Does that MEP have provisions for remote starting? I know those big military units just about always at least have permissive electric start. You could potentially devise a control scheme to cycle it as needed to take up load and recharge your inverter batteries when they get low.

  5. #125
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    20,856
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    12220

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Just a Sparky View Post
    Does that MEP have provisions for remote starting? I know those big military units just about always at least have permissive electric start. You could potentially devise a control scheme to cycle it as needed to take up load and recharge your inverter batteries when they get low.
    I could put enough solar PV up to do that, but Diesel is FAR more economical than Solar + the larger battery plant would be.

    So is throwing away a hundred pounds or two of decent steaks and seafood, actually AND a bottom-freezer linear-inverter LG box!

    An MEP-803a has overly-complex electronics to it, so the OEM / reproduction remoting kit is serious overkill, and priced accordingly ($400+?).

    I could actually rig a FAR cheaper one with an ignorant mechanical/SERVO to rotate the already-present "single-knob" main panel control so I didn't NEED to deal with "wires" back of the panel at all.


    Basically, I

    - trip the manifold heater for 60 seconds to dry it out. A dumb SPST relay can do that chore

    - select prime/run (set-tank or remote),

    ... and start it up.

    No smoke (or water-vapour mix..) so long as the manifold was heated first.
    Because .. it doesn't yet have a thousand hours on it since shipped new (and CARB-compliant, at the time), back in 2007.

    They are reputedly good for over then THOUSAND hours so long as decently maintained and not insulted too egregiously.

    That said, I'm not a believer in unattended operation anyway. I just stroll 20 feet and JFDI.

    If I am away, I can call a bud to go by the house and run it for a spell.

  6. #126
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    14,104
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    4812
    Likes (Received)
    5084

    Default

    QT: but Diesel is FAR more economical than Solar.

    But if you went to the greater expense of diesel and then never had a need for 3p that would seem like a waste of money.

    But buy buying stuff can be good for a growing economy... and if one does not have the money they might take out a mortgage. It could be better to buy something you don't need with somebody else money.

    Now with low-interest rates, throwing away money is a lot easier.

  7. #127
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Chico, Ca
    Posts
    168
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Lots of California is agricultural ... had a friend just outside Santa Rosa with seven acres tell PG&E he was going to raise sheep and needed three-phase for the well pump. 1500', free. Farmers got pull.
    They get to pay "standby" to Pacific Graft & Extortion to have 3Ø power, whether they are using power or not, pretty common for AG, for a 5 HP AG pump, standby fee is around $50 a month.

  8. #128
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    20,856
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    12220

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    QT: but Diesel is FAR more economical than Solar.

    But if you went to the greater expense of diesel and then never had a need for 3p that would seem like a waste of money.
    Not really. The grid is cheaper and more reliable than Solar, so Diesel used only "now and then" has about ten-percent - or less - of the NET life-cycle cost of solar. And I am not sending big chunks of money to China for the Solar, either.

    But buy buying stuff can be good for a growing economy... and if one does not have the money they might take out a mortgage. It could be better to buy something you don't need with somebody else money.

    Now with low-interest rates, throwing away money is a lot easier.
    "Low interest rates" are a pain in the pocketbook to those of us dependent on collecting rather than paying.

    Banksters charge the holders of "plastic" huge rates.. but pay those with savings next to nada. And yet.. the banks are NOT coining money.

    The slippage goes to cover legislated consumer protection and fraud costs!




    I've been moving equities about this very week to get better dividends. Six percent or better can be had - PLUS the market value out-pacing underlying inflation.

    Whereas CD's and Money-Market funds aren't paying enough to even cover the cost of preparing the statement!


  9. Likes 1yesca, triumph406 liked this post
  10. #129
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Country
    UNITED STATES MINOR OUTLYING ISLANDS
    Posts
    8,970
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    4340

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RMeyers View Post
    They get to pay "standby" to Pacific Graft & Extortion to have 3Ø power, whether they are using power or not, pretty common for AG, for a 5 HP AG pump, standby fee is around $50 a month.
    $50/mo sounds pretty cheap for 1500' of heavy-wall conduit and four fat conductors. He did have to dig the trench, tho (wanted it underground).

  11. #130
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Adamstown, Maryland USA
    Posts
    258
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2
    Likes (Received)
    14

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Just a Sparky View Post
    Does that MEP have provisions for remote starting? I know those big military units just about always at least have permissive electric start. You could potentially devise a control scheme to cycle it as needed to take up load and recharge your inverter batteries when they get low.
    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    ...

    An MEP-803a has overly-complex electronics to it, so the OEM / reproduction remoting kit is serious overkill, and priced accordingly ($400+?).

    ...
    thermite and I had an offline thread about that awhile back. I have a similar milspec generator (MEP802A) and an aftermarket (there is no OEM one AFAIK) remote start. My use case is different than his; I wanted a seamless auto-start capability for the home office that I used to bring home the bacon (past tense; I retired last year).

    So when the grid goes down here (all too frequently), the hybrid inverter automatically switches to the battery bank. A separate "coulomb counter" aka state-of-charge meter auto-starts the MEP802A when the battery bank is depleted to a programmed limit (75% SoC remaining in my case). The transition from grid to batteries to generator is so seamless that we usually don't know the grid is down until we hear the generator start a few hours later.

    It wasn't cheap to develop that capability, but a no-brainer for me financially as my livelihood was at stake.

  12. Likes Just a Sparky liked this post
  13. #131
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Adamstown, Maryland USA
    Posts
    258
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2
    Likes (Received)
    14

    Default

    Also, speaking of the three-phase MED80nA generators like thermite and I have, I sadly use my MEP802A for single phase only. Sad because I have three RPCs (plus two VFDs). I thought long and hard about how to use the three phase, but my complication was that the MED802A is necessarily at one location (main house) while two RPCs are in one outbuilding to the west of the house (opposite the generator) and the third RPC is in another new outbuilding to the east. Getting a third 10hp RPC for the new building was more economical by far than what it would have cost me to bury conduit and rejigger panels, transfer switch, etc. (even with me doing all the electrical work as always). So the three-phase panel in the new outbuilding is fed by the RPC and not by the MEP802A only a hundred feet away.

    I never considered asking the local poco about three phase; the utility poles for several miles are all single wire single phase. Though oddly I drive by a field about five miles away that's had three pole pigs on one pole for several years now ... with no nearby buildings. I'm guessing there were some frustrated plans to put up a shopping center or light industrial there.

    -Steve M.

  14. #132
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Iowa
    Posts
    3,341
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    116
    Likes (Received)
    508

    Default Back to the topic

    So the original topic was about a perceived 'lack of availability', but an aside reference was to consumer service voltage.

    There are at least 23 major reasons why the common North American power system is as it is, and Europe, and substantially GERMANY, are not the same. MOST of them, are historically-based, but there's a large chunk that are as much socio-economic, and safety-oriented.

    I don't have the desk time to identify all of them, but I'll point out just a few of the histoical points:

    It isn't Germany, but My ancestors' family home in Sandweiler, Luxembourg, was built in 1310AD, and when it was, there was no provision for electric power. It now has single-phase 220v power, which was added in 1977. Whatever it had PRIOR to that, was somewhat lower, generated from a coal-fired steam engine in a building a mile down the street, installed about 1930... but that system was blown-to-hell, cut to portable pieces, wire stripped and carted-off by the German Army when they overran the country during the early offensives of WW2. The power system was henceforth, not reconnected to that house until 1955, and at that point, it was just two wires, with a few light bulbs.

    At that same time, my current home was a 200-cow dairy farm, and the 1889 barn had been fitted (in 1907) with knob-and-tube wiring feeding electric lamps in the milking parlor, and two lamps high in the hay loft... powered by Edison batteries that were recharged by a kerosene-burning engine that also served as PTO for the 170ft well's pumpjack. In '07, The 'original' house, however, had oil lamps. Why? Because oil lamps were still acceptable there... but in a barn basement full of cow feces, topped by 63 tons of dry hay, is NOT a 'safe' circumstance, and milking cows in the dark ain't a good thing. They invested in electricity for the BARN, because a small fire THERE, would be economically devistating. It wasn't until they built the 'new' house in 1919, that they built it with both electrical wiring, and indoor plumbing.

    What does this have to do with Germany? Well, in 1944, this dairy farm was cranking out 1500 gallons of milk, while rural electrification was occurring WITHOUT A POWER GRID... it was locally generated. At the same time, in Germany, milk cows were being shot and eaten, because there was no water or food for them. Most of the power generating infrastructure was covered in broken concrete or on fire...and splintered up utility poles were being arranged in small piles, with survivors huddling around to stay warm (and perhaps cook a fortunate piece of dead cow).

    Move forward a decade: A large chunk of urban Europe was being rebuilt from scratch. Most of North America had been brought electric power, with rural outreach being the last... but in most cases (both of my homes being) the 90v DC systems were stripped of their batteries, and the buildings' wiring systems were connected to 110vAC with basically no modification aside from a pole-mounted fuseholder. It wasn't until AFTER 1930, that my HOME was fitted with wiring

    Why not more phases, more voltage, more current? Because 'rural electrification' as a political agenda didn't require it, and the CONSUMER didn't REQUIRE it, and it would require WAY TOO MUCH in resources to do. My house's generating plant had ONE air-cooled cylinder... probably 800W total electrical output. Insulation resistance of K&T is FINE at 120v-to-ground... but not necessarily wise at a higher point.

    JST's description of residential distribution explains the most common residential DISTRIBUTION used in North America... a 'mid level' 3ph distribution line (7.2 to 29kv range) to pole transformers. You could use a 'city' circumstance or a 'rural' circumstance, and the only difference is, in a CITY, you can put a 50kva pig on a pole, and provide power to three homes, but out here in the country, that 50kva pole pig will only be useful at MINE... because the next neighbor is a half-mile up the road... tapping a 240 or 480 branch that distance will yield nothing worthwhile.

    Now, the converse is, I've got that WHOLE 50kva on-tap, which is good, because I have TWO modest grain-dryers (built in'50 and '52) that have 15hp single-phase motors on their blowers, and a pair of 2hp motors on the stirrator. I'm certain the farmer before me could have demanded 3-phase, in which case the power co would have to hang TWO MORE pigs, on a STRONGER pole, with additional guy wires, and replace the drop, and install a new meter, to run those motors for the 6 weeks that the dryers would run every fall... and for the REMAINING 46 weeks, that investment of transformers, wire, and meter would serve NO purpose.

    Multiply that by the fact that there's 1100 other farms in my county that'd be the same way... that's 2200 additional transformers sitting atop poles just begging to get ripped down in a February ice-storm.

    In Germany, they do what worked out based on practical circumstances, including, but not limited to resource availability, distance between customers, and existing infrastructure. Every other place in the world has to do the same with THEIR circumstance.

    From perspective of my circumstance here, I see absolutely NO practical benefit to ripping out my entire system, and replacing it with a system of some other. It would not only impact every wall of my house, every building of my farm, and every wire in between, it would render my backup systems unusable, and require replacement or heavy modification of every piece of equipment I own.

    Just because something is 'standard' doesn't automatically mean 'better'.

    Other aside notes: Aircraft run 400hz AC to allow use of much smaller (and lighter) power transformers... running one over a long-distance transmission line would NOT be as fruitful. Running 3 phase in a steel-hull commercial workboat is pretty much standard, because things like water pumps, anchor windlasses, deck winches, ventilation and cooling blowers, air compressors, sewage macerators... all need to turn the proper direction. They're basically always delta-configuration (no neutral or ground, to prevent the hull, fittings, driveline, gearboxes, steering gear) from becoming subject to affects of galvanic corrosion, and the possibility of crew getting electrocuted by hull-based current flow.

    Electric automobiles' biggest performance flaws include low power-density, slow recovery rate, and no auxiliary capacity.
    (a battery of 20kwh weighs 992lbs.
    A Tesla Roadster is 2900lbs... about a THIRD of that (990lbs), is just the battery... some 6800ish 18650 Li-Ion cells for 53kwh... 1000-1200 charge cycles, a 7% self-discharge rate, high internal resistance, very low overcharge tolerance and a rather low safety threshold. A comparable weight of GASOLINE is 165 GALLONS... which is 5511 KWH of fuel energy. If your ICE is only 18% efficient, you're still at 991kw/h forthe same amount of energy of that 53kw battery.

    What does this mean? It means a gasoline powered vehicle of 2000lbs, with 16.5 gallons of gasoline, carrys the equivealent tractive fuel energy of an all-electric that is almost a thousand-pounds heavier. Get on a bicycle, climb a hill. Now climb same hill with a hundred pounds of iron strapped to the bike, and tell me it doesn't take more energy to climb that hill. Ride it on flat land, and tell me that your rolling resistance is the same... you'd be lying if you did. Hop in a Tesla Roadster, parked in my driveway, on a -22F January morning, and drive it to Williston, North Dakota. You won't make it to the Minnesota border, and you'll likely freeze to death trying... the batteries won't survive. It takes 4.5 minutes to recharge a 16 gallon gasoline tank. With a high-power charging setup ~ 3.2 hours. That means my 15 hour distance (in a car) would be that, plus a 15 minute stop every 2hrs (but only 37 gallons needed), for 2hrs additional, 17hrs. To go EV, that's 970/250=four legs with three recharges for 25 hours. Doesn't matter how the EV looks 'on paper', when it goes on the highway, the extra 8 hours means a second driver or an overnight stay... But did I mention that it's -22F outside? By the time I get to Williston, it'll be -36F, and the Tesla's glass and interior are NOT heated with MAGIC. Although that internal combustion engine is only 18% efficient, a huge chunk of that 79% is available to keep me alive, and my glass clear of frost.

    The reasons things are as they are, in the 'real' world, is not due to socio-political disposition, but rather the environmental context and practical demands of that place and time, and nothing more. One cannot legislate, mandate, or litigate in any way to overrule the laws of nature.

  15. Likes JST, eKretz, Ries liked this post
  16. #133
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    St Louis
    Posts
    19,460
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2448
    Likes (Received)
    3706

    Default

    Excellent post.

    I will only add that in most cases, you will not, out in the sticks, get your own 50 kVA transformer. More likely you will get a 15 kVA transformer for the house, which is equal to "your share" of a 50 kVA that serves 3 houses.

    That is what the in-law's house, a mile outside of a small town in Ohio, gets. And that is for a house and 3 outbuildings.

  17. #134
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Virginia
    Posts
    20,856
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    7561
    Likes (Received)
    12220

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    Excellent post.

    I will only add that in most cases, you will not, out in the sticks, get your own 50 kVA transformer. More likely you will get a 15 kVA transformer for the house, which is equal to "your share" of a 50 kVA that serves 3 houses.

    That is what the in-law's house, a mile outside of a small town in Ohio, gets. And that is for a house and 3 outbuildings.
    LOL! Our "initial" service - 1953 or '54 - was a 30A @ 220 V drop per household, later upgraded to 60A.

    We were delighted to be able to have a shallow-well pump, because that allowed a flush-toilet indoors, vs the privy, outdoors and leaving-off the small hand-pump right at the kitchen sink or the BIG one just outside the back door for just turning a TAP.. and with pressure ... not hand-pumped, a gas water heater instead of boiling water on the stove!

    Also an electric wringer washer in the basement instead of the gasoline-powered Maytag in the side yard. A RADIO set soon followed, Electrolux vacuum cleaner, electric toaster..then four or five electric lights - center of the ceiling - instead of the gas mantles at the side walls.

    Which we kept. The gas mantle provided much nicer light, those days.

    The "gravity" floor furnace, Arkla-Servel fridge and gas oven and cooker remained nat gas, since it was free (from our own wells).

    Long, long years, later a TV arrived with a sat dish. By then, there was gas air-con, and ISTR SIX of the gas fridges.

    A good month, there was also $800 in royalties for the 1/8th share off the gas wells. "Free" gas was there always off the feeder from the transit line. We had two sets of valves and meters, set up so a slight dif on the regulators preferred the wells if they were open for bizness, ELSE the transit lines.

    Gas was ALWAYS there, even if the wells were shut-in and being back-pumped for seasonal peaking storage. We HAD for fifty years also run the tractors and even the cars off the "casing head gasoline".. near-as-dammit pure Octane - that was blown-down into a holding tank, but.. eventually, EPA rules and such, the gas company had to regularly haul that away .. and the small amount of Pennsyslvania-grade crude oil with it.

    Even so.. we were kinda "survivalist" ready.

    Owned the coal as well as the gas & oil. So we kept a "bank mine" ready - high up on one hillside that went sideways into a seam of the "Waynesburg coal".

    And about 200 Acres in hardwoods.

    Such was West Virginia.

    Even so.. West Virginia up-hollow "subsistance" hill farms would come to mind during the years in the Diamond trade... as one of my workmates after another bragged about how EVERYTHING was better where they came from.. New York City.

    "So, tell me.. why is it that Rockville, Maryland has the second-largest concentration of Jewish folks outside of New York .. if it is New York that is better?"

    "Oh.. well... you can't actually LIVE there!"

    Mind.. that was fifty years ago. Even so, I don't THINK NYC has exactly "improved".

    West Virginia, OTOH?

    Well.. taxes on .23 acres of Virginia suburb are around $400 a MONTH higher than on 200 Acres up-holler WEST..By GOD..Virginia "farm".

    Well... "farm?".. only about ten acres were actually flat enough to put a plow to .. unless you could harness crows or OWLS to pull it?



    But I still can't actually LIVE there!"


  18. Likes Yan Wo liked this post
  19. #135
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    West Coast, USA
    Posts
    9,299
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    606
    Likes (Received)
    6789

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    Steve could start another thread
    He might call it: The lack of general availability of 3 phase power in the USA
    oh wait! He already did that.

    Far as I know, 3-phase power is available to most any industrial location that wants it. And, of course, lots of manufacturing plants choose to locate where power is readily and cheaply available.

    So, the question becomes - why doesn't every home have three phase power? Mainly, because it doesn't make much sense when the biggest draws are likely to be a hot water heater, a clothes dryer, and an assortment of dozens of wall warts to power today's game boy culture. Very few homes or homeowners own as many electric motors as the average among "practical machinists." I'd guess less than 1% have any motor larger than a true 5hp (not counting electric vehicles, charging at night) - and few even that.

    As others have said, the typical homeowner is a danger opening up an outlet box. Imagine if every home were wired for three phase . . .

  20. #136
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    peekskill, NY
    Posts
    27,343
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    6363

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    LOL! Our "initial" service - 1953 or '54 - was a 30A @ 220 V drop per household, later upgraded to 60A.

    We were delighted to be able to have a shallow-well pump, because that allowed a flush-toilet indoors, vs the privy, outdoors and leaving-off the small hand-pump right at the kitchen sink or the BIG one just outside the back door for just turning a TAP.. and with pressure ... not hand-pumped, a gas water heater instead of boiling water on the stove!

    Also an electric wringer washer in the basement instead of the gasoline-powered Maytag in the side yard. A RADIO set soon followed, Electrolux vacuum cleaner, electric toaster..then four or five electric lights - center of the ceiling - instead of the gas mantles at the side walls.

    Which we kept. The gas mantle provided much nicer light, those days.
    ....
    Our house still has the city gas lines in the walls, illumination was done that way in 1895.

    Radios were powered in rural areas with farm electrification setups - Winchargers or one-lung powerplants, often providing the 32 volts to charge lead-acid banks. Farm radios that run on 32 volts are prized by some vintage radio guys.

    You got indoor plumbing with that well pump - and probably a cesspool in the back yard as well. Our house, being in a city, had city water and city sewer from the git go. Neighbor's house predated those, and has a shallow dug well (which never goes dry) and, at one time, an outhouse in the back yard.

  21. #137
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Country
    NEW ZEALAND
    Posts
    419
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    33
    Likes (Received)
    98

    Default

    JST's description of residential distribution explains the most common residential DISTRIBUTION used in North America... a 'mid level' 3ph distribution line (7.2 to 29kv range) to pole transformers. You could use a 'city' circumstance or a 'rural' circumstance, and the only difference is, in a CITY, you can put a 50kva pig on a pole, and provide power to three homes, but out here in the country, that 50kva pole pig will only be useful at MINE... because the next neighbor is a half-mile up the road... tapping a 240 or 480 branch that distance will yield nothing worthwhile.

    Now, the converse is, I've got that WHOLE 50kva on-tap, which is good, because I have TWO modest grain-dryers (built in'50 and '52) that have 15hp single-phase motors on their blowers, and a pair of 2hp motors on the stirrator. I'm certain the farmer before me could have demanded 3-phase, in which case the power co would have to hang TWO MORE pigs, on a STRONGER pole, with additional guy wires, and replace the drop, and install a new meter, to run those motors for the 6 weeks that the dryers would run every fall... and for the REMAINING 46 weeks, that investment of transformers, wire, and meter would serve NO purpose.
    Minor point: in places with common three phase power, like here in NZ, they don't use three separate transformers - you end up with a single three-phase transformer in a single tank. This provides savings in core material, oil, housing etc., which means a 150kVA three phase transformer is much smaller/lighter than 3x50s, and 50kVA-ish three phase transformers are probably comparable to a 50kVA single phase.

    There's a lot of small-ish (<200kVA) transformers on unreinforced single wooden or double concrete poles around where I am, with no extra guide wires, and we're a very windy area.

  22. Likes Mark Rand liked this post
  23. #138
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    St Louis
    Posts
    19,460
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2448
    Likes (Received)
    3706

    Default

    Nobody who is whining about 3 phase seems to have any actual reason why houses would be better with 3 phase. There has to be a need before the need is supplied.

  24. Likes DaveKamp, SomeoneSomewhere liked this post
  25. #139
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Iowa
    Posts
    3,341
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    116
    Likes (Received)
    508

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JST View Post
    I will only add that in most cases, you will not, out in the sticks, get your own 50 kVA transformer.
    Up until this time last year, my place had a 25kva, on account that the two big blowers pulled about 65A each during the 8-or-so weeks following harvest... and the stirrers pulled another 20A per bin, so 170A continuous @ 230v for 40kw...WITHOUT the house... it was getting worked really hard... fortunately, it was usually pretty cool out when they were.

    Although the bins have been removed from service, that pig honored it's service with a self-prepared Viking Funeral... an unscheduled self-immolation... an unsanctioned celebration-of-life fireworks display. When I called the utility co to advise that they'd need a standard service and pole fitter with a transformer, some insulators, and a new pole, they treated me like I didn't know anything, but the service tech who showed up in an empty bucket truck realized immediately that I was 'not' ignorant on the basics.

    It took a while for a second (and third truck) to arrive, but as they were waiting for the pole fitter to set up, I asked why a 50... the answer was "We're standardizing all rurals on 50kva, as it's cheaper to do this, than stock the smaller units". The 50 wasn't much larger than the prior 20, and he said it was only a hundred-and-fifty pounds heavier... so I guess...

  26. #140
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    the Netherlands
    Posts
    240
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    2
    Likes (Received)
    40

    Default

    Most, if not all, new houses in the netherlands get 3 phases now, but it is not used as such. It is mostly because power consumption per house has gone up and to equally distribute the load on the grid.
    We have two types of house connection here: 230 volts, 30 amps and 230 volts, 3x25 amps. So between lines you get 400 volts and between line and 0 there is 230 volts.
    My house predates the installation of electricity which was done here somewhere around 1900. I still have old disused pipes for gas lighting in the attic. Anyway, when electricity was installed in the street house 1 would get phase 1, house 2 phase 2, house three phase 3 and then back to 1 for house 4 and so on. When I rebuilt my garage I wanted three phase for a car lift and other tools. Second hand industrial equipment is cheaper on the hobby market since most people did not have three phase installed. The house fuse box was upgraded by me and the power company sent an electrician to dig up the cable in the street and make a new connection. It cost me about 500€ at the time. Fixed monthly rate is about the same as single phase.


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •